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Drummond / Myford M Headstock Bearing

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geoff walker 109/05/2017 13:34:15
487 forum posts
187 photos

Hi All,

Yes, this mod of David's is interesting.

I have a spare headstock, spindle, bearings etc. and have been experimenting.

The first thing I notice is that with the new chuck end R.H. thrust bearing in place the spindle is moved outwards a small amount. The effect of this is that it is impossible to correctly adjust the original L.H. thrust bearing unless you insert a shim washer in between the the outer ring of the bearing and the shoulder on the L.H. end of the spindle. This is not a problem as the washer could be ground accurately to fit the gap

For this mod I would first of all square off the inside of the spindle on the chuck end shoulder( I know a bold step! )so the bearing lies flat against the shoulder. It is also important that when tightening the adjustment ring on the L.H. end of the spindle that both bearings adjust, "pinch", simultaneously, which is difficult to achieve but not impossible. This setting must be done with both front and rear main bearings correctly adjusted for use and locked in their working LATERAL positions.

Just my thoughts geoff

Ady110/05/2017 11:12:45
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5091 forum posts
736 photos

I hadn't actually fitted the rear bearing, only the front one, you need to remove the backgear to do the rear one and my original one was fine the last time I checked.

Anyway, in a moment of lucidity, or madness, I decided to remove the rear washer and fit this bearing right at the back yesterday.

So now my spindle is suspended between two roller bearings (light/medium preloading) and the main bearings can still be adjusted no problem

Makes a nice whirry noise as it runs...

Edited By Ady1 on 10/05/2017 11:18:43

geoff walker 110/05/2017 15:02:56
487 forum posts
187 photos

Hi Ady,

Yes I plan to fit the new end bearing as well, still needed to eliminate any end float of the spindle.

Having you try this as well. David's saddle lock, just the job and a few hours work.

Nice one David, thank you for the photo and info.

No more leaning over the machine to lock the saddle!!!! hooray.

geoffsaddle lock M type lathe

James Jenkins 123/06/2018 17:04:19
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125 forum posts

Hi all,

I have been scratching and scratching my head over this. I ordered the bearings and then was looking again and again at the pictures and yet only just in the last few minutes have I realised what I have done. So there are two options for the new thrust bearing and I have ordered the bearings for one and trying to fit it as though the other!

Please excuse the rough and ready drawing below, redrawn from the Drummond Manual. Am I correct in thinking there are two options for the new thrust bearing? Both outlined below? If so, is there a recomended one or is it a matter of opinion? Is a Myford M the same design?

Many thanks and I think I might be close to solving this!

James

geoff walker 123/06/2018 19:28:47
487 forum posts
187 photos

James,

Go to the drummond web site and SEARCH "m type poor finish cured" in BOTH the files and the photos.

They explain option 2 in detail, "Eugenes bearing dodge".

I've done it and it helps a lot with end float adjustment of the spindle, highly recommended.

Details of the bearing you need is in the drummond file.

Geoff

Eugene23/06/2018 22:16:13
131 forum posts
12 photos

Gosh, whatever did I start?blush

The original idea for the extra rear thrust bearing came to me in desparation when I was searching for a cure to constant chattering under virtually all operating conditions.

Reading other comments it seems that some M Types are very prone to the condition and some not so much; mine was sore afflicted, it was a really miserable experience for a beginner, I just couldn't produce anything that looked like a job.

Just prior to wrist slashing time I noticed that the chatter was ameliorated on facing cuts provided that the cutting tool was always moving, but if the cut was paused, the chatter kicked back in. I surmised that the axial tool pressure was compensating for a degree of end float for which the original captive ball type thrust bearing couldn't compensate. That's still the theory, but I'm open to offers.

Putting another, larger, thrust bearing "up the sharp end" seems to me an obvious further improvement step that just has to be worthwhile .... why didn't I think of that? As The Management sometimes says,"Because your'e stupid." Well done David.

The short bed M Type that was fitted up with the NTL some time back isn't due for any headstock work for a while, but the long bed version that's currently being refurbed will certainly get the full works.

Eug

Hopper24/06/2018 02:45:33
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6404 forum posts
334 photos

A couple of things to consider re putting roller thrust bearing at the chuck end as shown pop into mind. (Edit: Although I see on going back over this old thread that is has been done already with success by some.)

One is the ingress of swarf into the roller bearing behind the chuck. There is no seal and no room to put one. This could quickly wreck the bearing and negate any possible gains.

The other is that putting the thrust bearing at the chuck end would move the spindle toward the tailstock by the thickness of the bearing and its two flat ground washers. That's quite a bit. So well worn shafts in well worn bearings may not like the disturbance.

I'd leave the thrust bearing in its original location at the far end of the operation. It's hard to imagine the spindle flexing enough under axial compression to create chatter. When I replaced my original with a modern roller bearing, I used washers to make it the same thickness as the original bearing so the shaft stayed in the exact same location so the journals and bearings interfaced as they always did for the past 80+ years.

Then add the second roller thrust bearing on the outer end if you feel it's needed. It seems to have greatly improved the lathe for most who have tried it. Sadly I did not notice any great difference, but my lathe bearings and bed and gibs etc were all in very good condition and adjusted up just so and chatter was not a great problem anyhow.

For me, adjusting the headstock bearings every now and again seems to be critical on this lathe, and adjusting them so they lock up without the pinch bolts then turn the pinch bolts in until the spindle just rotates with barely, barely perceptible drag. So a little on the tight side in other words. It helps a lot too, to pull out the bearings and clean all the crud and burrs off the little keystone pieces and the slots in the bearings they fit into, so they are free to move unhindered. Likewise, cleaning up the angled noses of the pinch bolts.

This bearing adjustment seems, on mine, to have more influence on chatter than spindle end float and thrust bearings. But on machines with 80 years of wear it is certain to vary from machine to machine. I think mine had the bed remachined/scraped by a PO and the bearings relined with whitemetal so is probably not typical of the breed.

Edited By Hopper on 24/06/2018 02:55:49

Edited By Hopper on 24/06/2018 03:10:07

Hopper24/06/2018 04:15:06
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6404 forum posts
334 photos

PS, just noticed on your other thread you said you have 5 thou play in the headstock bearings. Tighten that up to zero play, zero drag (or just perceptible drag) and then adjust up the standard thrust bearing and see how your lathe performs then. Then add the extra left-hand end thrust bearing per Eugene's instructions and see what that does for you.

James Jenkins 124/06/2018 07:25:36
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125 forum posts

Hi all,

Thanks so much for your replies. I have two lathes to do, my treadle Drummond M & my long bed Myford M, which is going to be powered. I think, as I have the bearings already, I will do option 2 (Eugene's method) on the treadle and get that set up correctly, then think about (taking into consideration the concerns some have raised) testing option 1 on the Myford when I set that up.

Many thanks for your input - really appreciated.

James

James Jenkins 125/06/2018 15:11:54
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125 forum posts

I have tightened the bearings and added the option 2 bearing today (Eugene's Method). The movement has now been reduced to around 0.001" to 0.0015". I was mindful that it was very warm down there and that it is a treadle lathe! The effort to turn it has been increased, not dramatically or unmanageably, but noticeably.

Many thanks for your help with this.

James

Hopper26/06/2018 00:42:40
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6404 forum posts
334 photos

Fitting drip oilers to the tops of the pinch bolts might help reduce friction too. The old oil can when you think of it is a bit hit'n'miss. You can turn up a threaded adaptor with a tapered nose that fits in the original pinch bolts and soft solder it in place.Synthetic engine oil works pretty well and is plenty slippery.

Edited By Hopper on 26/06/2018 00:43:05

David George 126/06/2018 08:04:28
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1840 forum posts
503 photos

There is a drawing in my albums of pinch bolt lubricator with pictures of drip feed oilers if you need any information drop me a message.

lubrication stud.jpg

 

David

Edited By David George 1 on 26/06/2018 08:05:51

James Jenkins 126/06/2018 08:45:33
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125 forum posts

Hi - thanks so much for this. Both mine actually already have these on, so that saves me a job! For a future project I'd love to make a couple of glass vile drip oilers (probably not the correct term - but I suspect you know what I mean!).

Has anyone ever made a quick change tool holder for their Drummond/Myford M?

James

Hopper26/06/2018 10:58:24
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6404 forum posts
334 photos

No, but I made a fourway toolpost in teh Myford style. Machined it out of a solid block of steel in the lathe itself, using an end mill held in the three jaw chuck and the toolpost set on the topslide with suitable packers under it. Works real well.

The large hole required up the middle of the M type toolpost is not compatible with the design of most QC toolposts.

David George 126/06/2018 16:37:54
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1840 forum posts
503 photos

I have fitted a Myford quick change tool post to my M type. Have a look in my album complete with sketch drawing and pictures.

David

James Jenkins 116/01/2019 15:06:09
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125 forum posts

Hi all,

Apologies for igniting an old thread, but hoping I can get some advice.

I was turning some aluminium bronze last week and had a lovely finish, even with fairly heavy cuts. Decided to let everything cool, to take closer measurements and when I started up again I got a rotten finish. I decided that the headstock bearing must need adjustment, as I was never 100% happy with it. When I tried to tighten it found I couldn't get any sort of resistance, despite tightening it really quite hard (hammer on c-spanner).

I happen to have another old M laying around, so today I took out the front bearing in this and used it on the lathe, where I was indeed able to tighten the bearing, first so that I could just turn it by hand and then when the oiler was tightened down so that it turned with some slight resistance.

With this level of tightness I was able to get it so that a 9" wooden down in a large 3 jaw chuck could be pushed upwards so that the check moved up around 2 thou. This is cold.

Do the above settings seem about right? With the lathe be fine with another lathe's bearing in it?

Many thanks,

James

David George 117/01/2019 07:59:37
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1840 forum posts
503 photos

Hi James I would try and tighten it a bit more I can only get a half a thou movement on my M Type but you should check out temperature when running mine gets warm after running a while but not hot. You should have no problem changing the bush from another headstock but check for alignment after. Have you put in the extra thrust bearing at the chuck end, it makes the finnish much improved, look back in this thread.

David

Edited By David George 1 on 17/01/2019 08:06:14

Ady117/01/2019 10:26:24
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5091 forum posts
736 photos

Puts me in mind of another issue, worn bronze bearings on old Drummonds

There must be a lot coming to the end of the road

Need to buy some babbit for a rainy day

A kind soul in here provided this supplier many moons ago, not cheep I'm afraid

Edited By Ady1 on 17/01/2019 11:03:30

James Jenkins 117/01/2019 10:59:44
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125 forum posts

Hi,

Thanks for your replies. Yes, I have the additional bearing in. Would babbit be better than turning a new one from bronze?

I'll have another look tomorrow, I can hear the motor working harder than it was, so I am a bit nervous about tightening much more, but I didn't think I would get it better than 2 thou. Although I suppose it all depends a bit on how hard you are pulling / pushing to get a reading.

James

Ady117/01/2019 11:09:46
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5091 forum posts
736 photos

Would babbit be better than turning a new one from bronze?

No idea, but could be a lot easier to do and a lot cheaper in the long run

Nice new bearings are probably best but...

Even ME has almost nothing on babbitt after 1940, I think I got 2 hits on articles

But they used it on full size loco wheels so there's no loading wear worries

Can also experiment with it on anything you build should the notion arise

old article

Edited By Ady1 on 17/01/2019 11:23:25

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