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Silver Solder Stocks

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JasonB23/07/2021 18:25:00
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Certain industries can still use the Cad bearing solders, aerospace being one of them. Not sure about Cad plated bolts but Robert did mention their ban in another thread this week.

Speedy Builder523/07/2021 18:55:51
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During WW2, Dad was a design draughtsman at Heston Aircraft. One of his jobs was designing repair schemes to beat up aircraft. No higher authority needed - it was war! Besides bullet and shrapnel damage, one of the other major causes of damage was fretting of structures from wiring looms. The loom would be in tact and the metal component sawn through !

Bob

Robert Atkinson 223/07/2021 21:39:17
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Aerospace has got some aleviation from the bans on cadmium, hexavalent chrome and lead, but we are on borrowed time. These are not open ended. For steel fasteners etc passivated zinc plating is a fair replacement for cadmium. Chromic acid treatment of aluminum (Alodine) especically for repairs is a significant issue. There are alternatives for production but are hard to use in the field. Lead solder is slowly being replaced in new equipment designs.

Robert G8RPI
(I work in aerospace and am authorised to approve alternative parts and materals amonst other things)

Keith Hale24/07/2021 00:02:54
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Despite all this unrelated content

it is still illegal to place cadmium bearing silver solder into the UK market.

Forget the red herrings about bolts, what somebody did in the war, the product and cons of lead, chromic acid.

A Chinese, American, Norwegian, or misguided company in Kent can still be prosecuted for supplying a banned substance.

Let those who disagree set up a war chest of say £10m to fight their case. Count me out.

Keith

Nicholas Farr24/07/2021 07:50:44
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Hi, but there is still at least one in the UK on Ebay selling some and openly states that it contains Cadmium and described as good old fashioned EF. You would have thought that someone at Ebay would know this is illegal.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 24/07/2021 07:53:12

Edited By JasonB on 24/07/2021 10:04:30

Michael Gilligan24/07/2021 08:52:13
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Posted by Nicholas Farr on 24/07/2021 07:50:44:

[…]

You would have thought that someone at Ebay would know this is illegal.

.

”You would have thought” a lot of things about ebay

MichaelG.

Stueeee24/07/2021 08:54:29
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Posted by Nicholas Farr on 24/07/2021 07:50:44:

Hi, but there is still at least one in the UK on Ebay selling some and openly states that it contains Cadmium and described as good old fashioned Easy-Flo No.1. You would have thought that someone at Ebay would know this is illegal.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 24/07/2021 07:53:12

At the time of writing that's true. Apparently a crime being committed. From my experience, I can state that the product arrives with Johnson Matthey's paperwork pointing out precautions to be taken in use, the product's unsuitability for use in a food environment etc. So where is the victim here? Some people don't want to use Cadmium bearing Silver solder. Fine, don't buy it.

Robert Atkinson 224/07/2021 09:17:43
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Posted by Stueeee on 24/07/2021 08:54:29:
Posted by Nicholas Farr on 24/07/2021 07:50:44:

Hi, but there is still at least one in the UK on Ebay selling some and openly states that it contains Cadmium and described as good old fashioned Easy-Flo No.1. You would have thought that someone at Ebay would know this is illegal.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 24/07/2021 07:53:12

At the time of writing that's true. Apparently a crime being committed. From my experience, I can state that the product arrives with Johnson Matthey's paperwork pointing out precautions to be taken in use, the product's unsuitability for use in a food environment etc. So where is the victim here? Some people don't want to use Cadmium bearing Silver solder. Fine, don't buy it.

The Victims are those affected by the increased levels of Cd in the environment. Particuarly water. Using Cd bearing solder (there are also soft solders with Cd fot low thermal voltage) produces oxides that are either washed away or put in rubbish to be burnt or put in landfill.

The victims are future generations.

On ebay, you can report people selling hazardous materials and illegal items.

Robert G8RPI.

Michael Gilligan24/07/2021 09:21:26
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In the absence of evidence to the contrary, I would assume that the HSE information sheet is still ‘current’ post-Brexit:

European ban
Cadmium has been banned in a range of materials, including as fillers in soldering or brazing, due to serious health effects. There are some exceptions, relating to defence, aerospace or safety-related use and anyone wishing to make use of these should consult the European legislation direct. Companies supplying consumables are aware of the ban and manufacturers have produced cadmium-free alternatives.

MichaelG.

.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/eis31.pdf

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 24/07/2021 09:23:56

SillyOldDuffer24/07/2021 09:47:27
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Posted by Stueeee on 24/07/2021 08:54:29:
Posted by Nicholas Farr on 24/07/2021 07:50:44:...

At the time of writing that's true. Apparently a crime being committed. From my experience, I can state that the product arrives with Johnson Matthey's paperwork pointing out precautions to be taken in use, the product's unsuitability for use in a food environment etc. So where is the victim here? Some people don't want to use Cadmium bearing Silver solder. Fine, don't buy it.

So where is the victim here? Good question! Could be you, me, the neighbours, children yet unborn, and the taxpayer.

Cadmium's poisonous and suspected carcinogenic properties don't just effect the operator. Though most obviously dangerous when Silver solder is fuming it's also a problem for the Cleaner, whoever disposes or recycles the finished item in years to come, and anyone who drinks water from contaminated landfill.

Of course one or two folk quietly soldering the odd joint with cadmium loaded solder doesn't matter. What does is large numbers doing the same, which happens as soon as products like this hit the market.

Think 'other people'. What's OK on a private ranch in deepest Montana might not be OK in a central Manchester tower block. Neighbours have rights too, and why should the taxpayer pick up the cost of our mistakes? The worldwide ban on Cadmium is aimed at protecting the public, and the practicalities exclude making hobbyists a special exception.

Easier to buy solder from someone reputable and take their advice. See Keith Hale's comments.

Dave

Pete Rimmer24/07/2021 10:00:34
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I suspect that the manufacture of such solder is far more hazardous on the whole than the use, and the process of cadmium plating several orders of magnitude more enviromentally hazardous again.

JasonB24/07/2021 10:10:16
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Posted by Stueeee on 24/07/2021 08:54:29:
Posted by Nicholas Farr on 24/07/2021 07:50:44:

Hi, but there is still at least one in the UK on Ebay selling some and openly states that it contains Cadmium and described as good old fashioned Easy-Flo No.1. You would have thought that someone at Ebay would know this is illegal.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 24/07/2021 07:53:12

At the time of writing that's true. Apparently a crime being committed. From my experience, I can state that the product arrives with Johnson Matthey's paperwork pointing out precautions to be taken in use, the product's unsuitability for use in a food environment etc. So where is the victim here? Some people don't want to use Cadmium bearing Silver solder. Fine, don't buy it.

As this was described as old stock, the paperwork was likely to be out of date too.

It is not just a case of wanting to use it, buy buying it you have also broken the law, unlikely to be enforced but still illegal unless you are one of the few allowed industrial users.

Pete Rimmer24/07/2021 10:16:34
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Does being illegal to put on the market automatically make buying it an offence too though?

Nicholas Farr24/07/2021 11:20:28
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Posted by Stueeee on 24/07/2021 08:54:29:
Posted by Nicholas Farr on 24/07/2021 07:50:44:

Hi, but there is still at least one in the UK on Ebay selling some and openly states that it contains Cadmium and described as good old fashioned EF. You would have thought that someone at Ebay would know this is illegal.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 24/07/2021 07:53:12

At the time of writing that's true. Apparently a crime being committed. From my experience, I can state that the product arrives with Johnson Matthey's paperwork pointing out precautions to be taken in use, the product's unsuitability for use in a food environment etc. So where is the victim here? Some people don't want to use Cadmium bearing Silver solder. Fine, don't buy it.

Hi Stueeee, I'm sorry if my post has upset you, but apart from all the other comments about any victims, those who are unaware or just don't understand the dangers of Cadmium in silver solders, are in the front line of victims.

Regards Nick.

Chris Crew25/07/2021 22:09:16
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Posted by Martin Kyte on 22/07/2021 22:36:13:

Why is it that when something hazardous is taken off the market and replaced with a safer product there is alwys a group who immidiately want to use the old stuff?

regards Martin

 

It's almost the same with lead-bearing soft solder. Fortunately I have a lifetime's supply of the old stuff which I still use for all my household plumbing jobs. Less fortuitously I am running low on the old type flux and I am completely out of Baker's fluid. I have found when using the newer lead free stuff that it doesn't run round the joints quite so freely and the new type flux is more sensitive to 'burning' which prevents the solder running at all so you have to be careful when applying the heat. It may well be my lack of skill and knowledge that allows this to happen occasionally. However, having just reconfigured all the underfloor pipework for a new re-arranged bathroom suite I am just hoping that the joints hold under the newly tiled floor. I did leave the joints under the domestic water pressure, which is quite high here being at the bottom of a valley, for a couple of days and checked for any drips before they disappeared for ever, but who can say?

Edited By Chris Crew on 25/07/2021 22:11:39

Neil Wyatt26/07/2021 10:27:09
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I assume that as with jewellery the status of anything made before 2011 will be it has to be 'safe' (without any clear qualifications).

As for 'new old stock' for brazing rods, it's illegal for us to use them, so I can't understand why selling them would be OK.

It might be worth thinking about the legal status of models and locomotive boilers made with cadmium bearing solder.

If you want to sell an item made post 2011, you would be wise to avoid all cadmium containing materials.

Neil

Andrew Tinsley26/07/2021 10:55:18
1461 forum posts

Hello Neil,

Could you give a reference to your claim that it is illegal to use cadmium bearing silver solder? According to a friend of mine who is a membe of the legal profssionr. It is illegal to sell said item but not illegal to use it.

Clarification would be appreciated as I am still using cadmium bearing silver solder. I do so outside with positive pressure breathing apparatus.

Andrew.

SillyOldDuffer26/07/2021 11:27:14
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Posted by Pete Rimmer on 24/07/2021 10:16:34:

Does being illegal to put on the market automatically make buying it an offence too though?

Maybe, maybe not. Because English law is based on precedent, and punishments are set by tariff, it's not consistent. But broadly, if it's illegal to sell it, it's usually illegal to buy it. Off-hand I can't think of a counter-example.

Usually selling is a more serious offence than buying. A Cannabis user will get off with a warning, while a Cannabis Dealer will be arrested unless the quantity is tiny. It's illegal in the UK to buy or sell firearms without a licence, and illegal to possess one. You can't trade in firearms by barter or by gifting them.

I've no idea where Cadmium Solder sits between puffing Cannabis and buying a crate full of assault rifles with ammunition.

I don't see risky substances as being black and white. However, to my mind there's a big difference between ignorantly using Cadmium because it makes the job easier, and taking a properly calculated risk with precautions, including what happens to the finished product in years to come. I feel posts in favour of Cadmium solder are being made by practical men who don't know much about Cadmium, for example 'These symptoms are usually delayed for some hours after the exposure, and fatal concentrations may be breathed without sufficient discomfort to warn the workman to leave the exposure.' Common-sense cannot be applied to Cadmium.

Very odd; chaps who have a visceral fear of acid, which might be perfectly safe, are gung-ho about Cadmium, which is always dangerous. I suggest looking it up rather than hoping for the best. A substance being banned is a clear signal the stuff needs a plan, not cracking on regardless!

May help to know humans are p*ss poor at evaluating long-term risk, If it's not immediately and obviously dangerous (like a hungry grizzly bear), we don't get it. Millions are killed every year by prolonged tobacco, booze and sugary goodness...

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 26/07/2021 11:28:30

Pete Rimmer28/07/2021 21:09:30
1047 forum posts
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Posted by Neil Wyatt on 26/07/2021 10:27:09:

It might be worth thinking about the legal status of models and locomotive boilers made with cadmium bearing solder.

If you want to sell an item made post 2011, you would be wise to avoid all cadmium containing materials.

Neil

I don't like to play Devil's advocate Neil but I really think this is a bit of a stretch. Selling an item that contains traces of cadmium in it's construction isn't the same as selling a product that has cadmium as one of it's constituent parts.

I suspect that it's no more illegal to sell a model built with cadmium-based solder than it is to sell a piece of old equipment that has asbestos flash shields in the electrical cabinet. That said I'd welcome a pointer towards the legislation that specifically makes it so.

Brian H28/07/2021 22:26:55
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I'm beginning to feel guilty for starting this, which seems to have wandered a LONG way off track.

Brian

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