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Where can I find the "code" for indexable tips

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Andrew Tinsley15/01/2017 20:16:51
1630 forum posts

I want to buy some indexable tool holders and tips. I need them for getting through the skin of some castings. The coding must be comprehensible to our more experienced forum members, But I don't have a clue! Is there anywhere that I can find definitions?

The median priced tool holders from such as Chronos, ARC Eurotrade and Rotagrip, to name a few, seem much of a muchness. They look as though they came out of the same factory in China. Does anyone find one source better than another? I can't see the point of going for something like Sumitomo and other upmarket tool holders for rough work, or are they worth the extra long term?

Thanks,

Andrew.

Muzzer15/01/2017 20:31:01
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2904 forum posts
448 photos

There's an ISO standard, so the numbering system is pretty much a global one, with a slight variation for our imperial-loving American cousins. Most of the big manufacturers have guides, such as this one from Korloy.

Mike Houghton did an article in MEW (April 2008?) if you can find it.

I doubt the "median priced" inserts all "come from the same factory in China". There are good and bad, so if you stick with a reputable supplier, rather than going for cheapest price, you will likely end up with a better experience.

Murray

HOWARDT15/01/2017 20:52:18
910 forum posts
39 photos

Sandvik Coromant has plenty of reading material.

http://www.sandvik.coromant.com/en-gb/products/pages/turning-inserts-grades.aspx

If you are cutting through hard skins you would be better to steer clear of unknown provenance tips. Carbide tips can be made from crushed used tips as well as virgin carbide. The use of virgin carbide will give a tip to a specification of which there are many. Use of recycled carbide cannot give a tip to as good a specification. Unknown carbide may chip or wear quickly leading to greater cost or complete failure to cut. Tip grade needs to be chosen to suit its purpose considering both the machine specification and material to be cut.

Manufacturers from Europe and Japan abound using virgin carbide, even some in the UK, prices can be steep 3 or 4 times the price of India, China etc.

Howard

Mike Payne 117/01/2017 13:07:39
9 forum posts
5 photos

This is a pretty good guide too

http://www.cutwel.co.uk/learn-the-turning-tool-iso-code-system

Scrumpy17/01/2017 15:01:29
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151 forum posts

Yes to the Korloy chart there is a large selection at MSC tool supplies with more information

Ajohnw17/01/2017 15:16:04
3631 forum posts
160 photos

There sometimes is a big difference between lathe tools from various suppliers. Using torx screws on indexed tips for instance. Also the tips fitted. Spare screws, maybe spare torx drivers as well. There is a certain amount of penny pinching in this area.

Not knowing what lathe you are using you may find it difficult to find a truly suitable indexable tip especially if it's a tough skin on cast iron. In that case you might be better of with braised tip in K20 or even P30. These generally have very low clearance angles on them so it's important not to set over centre height and as it's carbide be gentle with intermittent cuts - speed wise more than anything else. K20's should be red and P30's blue.

They can be reground with a green grit wheel. Rather well actually.

John

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Vic17/01/2017 16:00:05
3074 forum posts
8 photos

These folks are good for toolholders and inserts.

**LINK**

Vic17/01/2017 16:00:05
3074 forum posts
8 photos

Double post. Why is this website so slow sometimes!

Edited By Vic on 17/01/2017 16:01:33

Vic17/01/2017 16:00:06
3074 forum posts
8 photos

You can use solid carbide in a tangential tool holder. I use old broken mills someone gave me.

Edited By Vic on 17/01/2017 16:04:10

Andrew Tinsley17/01/2017 17:08:22
1630 forum posts

Thank you all, for the above information.

When I said tools look much the same, I was referring to the tool holders rather than the tips themselves. They all seem to be around £20 each and I can't see much difference between them from the photos. The tips are a different matter. I strongly suspect that you get what you pay for!

Thanks again,

Andrew.

Andrew Tinsley17/01/2017 17:17:05
1630 forum posts

I have just looked at the APT site. The indexable tools look a much better job than most. I was enthusing until I realised that the smallest too holder was 16 x 16 mm ! too big for my ML10 or indeed the phoenix ML7 that is taking shape slowly.

Andrew.

Vic17/01/2017 17:51:12
3074 forum posts
8 photos
Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 17/01/2017 17:17:05:

I have just looked at the APT site. The indexable tools look a much better job than most. I was enthusing until I realised that the smallest too holder was 16 x 16 mm ! too big for my ML10 or indeed the phoenix ML7 that is taking shape slowly.

Andrew.

Not sure what you were looking at but the shanks start at 10mm. Example:

**LINK**

John Gardener18/01/2017 07:03:02
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75 forum posts
21 photos

I was confused too and found this:- http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-insert-d.htm which made me more confused. Having bought the wrong size for my tools I decided to get some steel and make my own tool.

Neil Lickfold18/01/2017 11:54:36
862 forum posts
195 photos

For tool holders, there are screw type, ie hole in the middle of the insert. These same inserts generally also have various top clamp options. Some use the same hole insert, but have a centre pin that pivots in such a way that it retains the insert, while others may have a wedge design that then pushes the insert to a centre pin to hold it. There is also the top clamp that does not require a centre hole, and some holders will take both inserts of the same geometry, but with or without the centre hole. Where possible, I try and buy the top clamp style holders that take the common inserts with a centre hole. An outer turning tool insert can then be used in a boring bar if it takes that geometry insert, (usually a N neutral geometry insert) and the boring bars, especially the smaller ones under Ø20mm have a centre screw for the inserts anyway. Some brands will go down to 8mm shanks for the outer turning tools, but most are the 3/8(9.5mm) or the 10mm shank tools. Some tools like the TNMG16 holders often start at a 12mm shank, so need thinning on the bottom side to bring the insert to the holders centre line height, in my case 9.5 mm for my Myford S7. The smaller CCMT 06 inserts, are available in 8mm shanks. I try and stay with common industry standard insert sizes and get my holders to match best as possible, and only thin if I have too. You can tell the common industry standard by getting a book from a company that sells locally. The common ones have loads of geometry styles as well as material grades and coatings. The less common only have a few geometry styles , and often only offer the inserts in a few grades , sometimes with no other coating options. I learnt long ago that a cheap insert is not always cheap in the longer term. Most of the tooling company catalogues these days are a wealth of information, with optimised cutting conditions and what coatings etc can do what. If you do interrupted cutting, they have insert suggestions and grades for that as well.

The book is well worth having a look at to see what is happening.

Neil

JasonB18/01/2017 12:03:12
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Moderator
22751 forum posts
2653 photos
1 articles

For getting through the skin of castings and general roughing out I tend to use thw SCBCL and SCBCR holders that use the two "unused" corners of the common CCMT and CCGT inserts. One it uses up the inserrts that would otherwise be thrown away once the two 80deg corners have been used. Two being less pointed the 100deg corner is less prone to damage. Note they won't cut into an internal corner but as they are only for roughing that is not usually an issue though they will also finish well to if its a through cut.

Reasonably priced ones in ME friendly shank sizes can be had from JB Cutting Tools and Greenwoods.

Andrew Tinsley18/01/2017 13:20:42
1630 forum posts

A real wealth of information there, thanks everyone.

Vic, you are quite correct in saying there are 10 x 10 sizes of holder in the web site you pointed me too. They are few and far between and don't seem to cover my simple requirements. The one you illustrated has a very long taper and I would have thought to be a risky bet for cutting through a cast iron skin. I will spend more time going through their offerings to see what other small shank tools they do. Worth the time spent as they do appear to be superior to the usual medium price offerings.

Jason, thanks for your lead, I will follow it up.

As an aside, I have been parachuted into the indexable tool system after 30 odd years of not touching a lathe! I have used some of the carbide tips on a bigger lathe belonging to a friend. The finishes that I get are not up to what I would expect from a good, sharpened and formed HSS lathe tool. My friend openly admits to buying cheap Chinese tips, so is this the reason for the poorish finishes, or as I suspect, a HSS tool for our ME use gives a superior finish?

Thanks again,

Andrew.

JasonB18/01/2017 13:35:52
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Moderator
22751 forum posts
2653 photos
1 articles

Probably just as much to do with how the tips are used eg feeds, depth of cut and rigidity of machine though a good tip will be better than a pore one. Holders to a lesser degree most of mine are Glanze and seem to work OK for me.

If you want small holders then the hobby suppliers are nore likely to have them, JB cutting tools, Greenwood tools, ARC Eurotrade, Glanze (Chronos) to name but a few will have from 6x6 upwards.

Ajohnw18/01/2017 14:09:48
3631 forum posts
160 photos

APT's own brand stuff seems to be pretty good to me and the prices are reasonable.

I use the triangular carbide tips - 3 points all the same. I use the usual hobby holders but make sure they use torx screws. The hex socket ones are a waste of money as they round over. The same tips can be used in various sizes of boring bar so I just stock one tip. Other styles probably also offer the same. The triangular ones will cut in both directions after a fashion so mimic what I often grind on HSS.

The reason I mentioned size is that I use the 11mm ones. There are some tips which look suitable for cast iron - no rake, no chip breaker and low clearance angles but only at 16mm and up.

I have turned a lot of cast iron in the past - before using indexed tips. My favourite was a red V nosed brazed tip. They have a large rad on the end which isn't the best thing for small lathes but once the skin is off they can give a decent finish. Even when it's been taken off really. An ordinary bar turning type will probably remove more material without using much power. I found the V nose ok on a clarke type mill drill though. They are decent quality ones - came of Reeves when they were in Marston Green. At the time a lot of people used the blue ones.

John

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Vic18/01/2017 15:58:03
3074 forum posts
8 photos

The first one I linked Andrew is very popular with model engineers giving plenty of clearance. If you want something a bit more obtuse there is this one with a 12mm shank.

**LINK**

Edit. Sorry it says on long delivery or discontinued. blush

Edited By Vic on 18/01/2017 16:00:06

Muzzer18/01/2017 16:05:00
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2904 forum posts
448 photos
Posted by John Gardener on 18/01/2017 07:03:02:

I was confused too and found this:- http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-insert-d.htm which made me more confused. Having bought the wrong size for my tools I decided to get some steel and make my own tool.

John - that's a US site, so the dimensional fields are in imperial units. As I said above, the basic system is almost the same but they can't hack metric units so made their own version.

Note that the Cutwel reference Mike Payne linked to is for the toolholders, not the inserts. That's also an ISO numbering system. Naturally, the ANSI (US) version uses similar but different numbering for the height etc dimensions to further add confusion.

Murray

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