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End Mills

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Lynne31/12/2016 04:19:24
62 forum posts
23 photos

I am thinking of getteng some end mills which I intend to only use on brass . Need some advice on what to go for. Regards Lynne.

JasonB31/12/2016 07:50:46
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16249 forum posts
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I the smaller sizes I find that the 3 flute FC-3 type are quite reasonably priced for sizes upto 6mm. Usually get mine for MSC when they have them on offer which is virtually all the time, have a look at bottopm of page 9 on the latest comic the uncoated will be fine.

In the larger sizes then the ones from ARC are good value, can't really tell much difference between them and my Dormer ones.

Generally avoid sets unless they are a well known brand as quality of the no name ones can be a bit iffy.

Piero Franchi31/12/2016 09:18:54
124 forum posts
60 photos

if your not in a hurry, Ebay from china or the far east is plenty good enough.

The likes of Arc zone and RGT tools, all buy them from there, they buy them in bulk GETTING even better prices from the seller, they wait the 4 to 6 weeks FREE delivery and then double or treble the price,

Its not like its going to go wrong maybe like an electrical item,

I buy ALL my end mills this way and will never pay double again

Douglas Johnston31/12/2016 09:49:35
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606 forum posts
32 photos

A lot of cutting tools from China are very good and I have bought some very good end mills from there in the past, but you have to be careful because there is some dreadful stuff as well. Don't buy a lot of cutters in one go from a supplier you have never dealt with before, but try perhaps one or two cutters from a few different suppliers and then pick the best supplier for future orders. Since most of the suppliers provide "free" postage this can be done quite cheaply.

Doug

Edited By Douglas Johnston on 31/12/2016 09:50:15

Neil Wyatt31/12/2016 10:40:05
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Posted by Piero Franchi on 31/12/2016 09:18:54:

if your not in a hurry, Ebay from china or the far east is plenty good enough.

The likes of Arc zone and RGT tools, all buy them from there, they buy them in bulk GETTING even better prices from the seller, they wait the 4 to 6 weeks FREE delivery and then double or treble the price,

Its not like its going to go wrong maybe like an electrical item,

I buy ALL my end mills this way and will never pay double again

I know that Arc and other companies go over to China and visit the factories and check out the QC and agree detail specifications before they place an order, they also refund or replace any duff items - all this costs money, as does running a large and well stocked warehouse so they can do rapid despatch and having informative and accurate advertising and websites. In China nothing is rejected - it's just sold off cheap, and much of the 'not quite perfect' stuff ends up on the 'Bay.

I'm not saying you can't get good stuff cheap direct from China, but being a UK stockist is not just a matter of ordering in bulk from China and sitting back on large sofas stuffed with cash...

Neil

Alan Waddington 231/12/2016 11:11:43
446 forum posts
86 photos

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 31/12/2016 10:40:05:

Posted by Piero Franchi on 31/12/2016 09:18:54:

if your not in a hurry, Ebay from china or the far east is plenty good enough.

The likes of Arc zone and RGT tools, all buy them from there, they buy them in bulk GETTING even better prices from the seller, they wait the 4 to 6 weeks FREE delivery and then double or treble the price,

Its not like its going to go wrong maybe like an electrical item,

I buy ALL my end mills this way and will never pay double again

I know that Arc and other companies go over to China and visit the factories and check out the QC and agree detail specifications before they place an order, they also refund or replace any duff items - all this costs money, as does running a large and well stocked warehouse so they can do rapid despatch and having informative and accurate advertising and websites. In China nothing is rejected - it's just sold off cheap, and much of the 'not quite perfect' stuff ends up on the 'Bay.

I'm not saying you can't get good stuff cheap direct from China, but being a UK stockist is not just a matter of ordering in bulk from China and sitting back on large sofas stuffed with cash...

Neil

Have to agree with Neil, if we don't support our homegrown suppliers, they will disappear, along with the convenience of next day delivery, known quality and returnable goods. The likes of Arc and RDG etc represent excellent value for money for the home engineer.

Try a price comparison with an industrial machine tool merchant to get an idea.

The costs of running a business in this country are eye watering, and i doubt any of them are getting rich from importing and selling on to us. Most of the stuff bought direct from China by private individuals is swerving VAT and import duty, which a business cannot evade.

In response to the OP, i bought some carbide end mills from Vicky Thwaites at Chesterfield Machine Tools, they were very reasonably priced, i haven't tried them in brass, but they cut steel beautifully, giving a very fine finish. Photo is a piece of black flat so not the best material to get a finish on.20161230_182452_resized.jpg

Piero Franchi31/12/2016 13:50:10
124 forum posts
60 photos

If supporting home grown suppliers etc was the case "WHY ARE THEY BUYING THERE STOCK FROM OVERSEAS"

You have lost the argument there I am afraid.

Stop for a minute, and dont argue for the hell of it, just think about it!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ketan Swali31/12/2016 14:10:27
1111 forum posts
91 photos

Lynne,

As you are working with brass, you should consider un-coated end mills with two flutes, ideally with a high helix flute angle. Reasons - in simple without getting technical - Non-ferrous material such as brass fails to perform well with coated end mills. Two flute reduces the chance of the end mill clogging, and with a high helix angle, swarf is expelled more easily.

Having said the above, you could use the cheap and chearful TiN coated or any other, with variable results, which may or may not meet your requirements.

Where you buy from is up to you. As Piero said, eBay from China may be good enough for you, as it is for him.

I would however correct Piero in his understanding about who ARC buy from. The cheap and cheerful TiN coated endmills which we sell are sourced from a specific maker in China, and the premium end mills which we sell are purchased from a specific premium end mill maker, with full material traceability, who make for well-known world brands.

It took ARC over eight years 'to be allowed' and 'to be in a position' to buy from the premium maker, who services a very limited number of overseas buyers, as its order books from within the Chinese premium end industrial user buyers is very strong. Delivery times to us from them are between six to eight months... Keeping this in mind, we constantly monitor and look into our crystal ball for enlightenment about how much stock we should bring in. We often get this wrong as we go out of stock on some sizes sooner then others. The positives are that demands for the premium range has grown.

Whilst ebay may be fine for the hobby user, if ARC wants to grow its business, we have to maintain a certain level of consistency, if we are to be taken seriously by the growing number of industrial users who buy from us. We are happy to service both sectors, and we are grateful for the support from all concerned. We are especially grateful to the hobby users who have helped us in the development process of the premium endmill range.

Piero is also mistaken about pricing. Our profit margins on these products are much lower then he thinks. In many cases, our buying costs are higher than those being offered on ebay. Reasons are covered by a combination of comments made on this thread by others, as well as on this thread, which talks about the black market economy, on which I would not like to elaborate. All I can confirm that our 'premium' makers product will not come onto ebay, especially because most Chinese ebay sellers cannot buy from them, and if they could, they would not buy from this maker, because they would not be able to sell them and make a profit on them at the current ebay selling prices. The only way a Chinese ebay seller could buy and sell a premium endmill sourced from our maker, is if he/she stole them, and/or he/she sold them at a loss to launder criminal money.

Conclusion: One should buy from where ever one feels happy.

Ketan at ARC.

Alan Waddington 231/12/2016 14:23:08
446 forum posts
86 photos
Posted by Piero Franchi on 31/12/2016 13:50:10:

If supporting home grown suppliers etc was the case "WHY ARE THEY BUYING THERE STOCK FROM OVERSEAS"

You have lost the argument there I am afraid.

Stop for a minute, and dont argue for the hell of it, just think about it!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not having an argument with anyone as far as I know, just airing an opinion. Which I have given quite a bit of thought to thank you.

In answer to your question "why are they buying them overseas"

Simple, so they can buy them at a competitive enough price, pay the import duty, add the VAT put some mark up on and still sell to us at a reasonable cost, whilst keeping shelves full of stock and delivering next day............Fair enough in my book.

Piero Franchi31/12/2016 14:30:27
124 forum posts
60 photos

Lets not turn this topic into "lets save face"

I to run a small company, And I know a few things about business, NO business ever started with an idea of doing right by the customer, they are there to make money, full stop, lets not be fooled.

My point is/was. wether you buy directly from china/far east, or support the so called UK seller who then buys from the far east, your money is ending up in the far east.

if the UK seller was to buy from the UK, I would whole hartly support them.

If your money is ending up in the far east, why not buy direct from them your self?????????

not done it yet31/12/2016 14:33:03
3344 forum posts
11 photos

Ketan,

I think you have it wrong a bit. Premium (as in quality) items would be available to Chinese epay sellers. But they would notbuy them as theywould not be able to sell them at the rock bottom prices they currently ask for on epay.

If people want the absolute cheapest, they will usualy receive the lowest quality product. If it is a tool - buy cheap, buy twice; if a cutter - buy cheap, use once and throw away (or sharpen very often, if it does not break). Just don't expect any after sales service from the cheapest epay sellers.

Russell Eberhardt31/12/2016 14:44:22
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2480 forum posts
85 photos

Just my 2 eurocents worth: For years I have used British made end mills from various sources and was entirely happy. Last Christmas ( a year ago) I was given some of ARCs premium quality Chinese end mills and the improvement in finish was very noticeable. I will not go back to using the British made ones however well sharpened except for a few imperial size slot drills.

Russell.

Alan Waddington 231/12/2016 14:48:59
446 forum posts
86 photos
Posted by Piero Franchi on 31/12/2016 14:30:27:

Lets not turn this topic into "lets save face"

I to run a small company, And I know a few things about business, NO business ever started with an idea of doing right by the customer, they are there to make money, full stop, lets not be fooled.

My point is/was. wether you buy directly from china/far east, or support the so called UK seller who then buys from the far east, your money is ending up in the far east.

if the UK seller was to buy from the UK, I would whole hartly support them.

If your money is ending up in the far east, why not buy direct from them your self?????????

Piero, you're missing my point completely. Of course they are in business to make money, but they wouldn't make any more or less by selling British goods, the mark up would be the same, only the price to us would be more.

I don't have any issue with my money ending up in China, that's fairly inevitable buying manufactured goods at a certain price point. However I prefer to spend my money with a UK supplier and get my goods quickly at the agreed price, knowing if I have any issues I can send them back.

If you prefer to buy direct from China, that's your perogative. Let's just hope your customers don't decide to do the same.

mark costello 131/12/2016 18:33:55
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541 forum posts
12 photos

All this time I thought Neil's sofa had all the cash.


Bruce Edney31/12/2016 18:51:43
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149 forum posts
53 photos

I use mainly 4 flute carbides from this supplier - No interest other than a satisfied buyer

http://stores.ebay.com/hengyoutools/

Happy New Year everyone

Jon31/12/2016 21:46:50
988 forum posts
46 photos

Pays your money takes your choice but theres a lot of garbage from asia fit for nothing except emptying your wallet. Likewise theres not just one 'Premium' manufacturer theres dozens that make for proper established quality conscious brands of yester year, having said that not as good as old homeland made by a long way.

Piero does have a point, likewise I have always supported number one wherever possible, failing that from our allies, wheres your jobs gone need I say more?

XD 35131/12/2016 22:15:57
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1326 forum posts
112 photos

I usually hunt around on ebay for locally made cutters - Sutton or p&n etc but only buy from local sellers and when i see a bargain i'm all over it !

If i need something that I can't find on Ebay i buy from my local supplier , i would never buy out of China on Ebay as many sellers over there use a generic picture to show the goods and it is usully a picture of a name brand that has been photo shopped to remove the manufacturers name .

Unfortunately many manufacturers that used to make tools here are now sourcing out of China so you still pay for the "Name " but get an inferior product .

At least with a local supplier like Ketan you know it is not worth his time , money or business reputation to import junk !

Vic01/01/2017 00:41:43
2250 forum posts
11 photos

I've bought quite a few items from China in the past year, all of it at around 25% of the cost here. So far it's all been good although you do have to wait a couple of weeks for delivery. I object, for example, paying £2 plus postage for a single Torx (insert) screw when I can get a dozen for £3.50 inc postage and a free driver. smiley

Hopper01/01/2017 00:56:11
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3699 forum posts
73 photos

I have had good luck buying HSS end mills and slot drills off eBay from Hong Kong based sellers. They all so far have provided excellent service for home hobby use, almost exclusively on steel and a bit of brass. I figure that with all the factories over there in China these days the demand for plastic moulding dies and press stamping tooling must be huge and they are not making all those with rubbish milling cutters that need changing mid-job etc. So far so good, with cutters ranging from 3mm diameter up to 22mm. That's been my experience.

Ian S C01/01/2017 10:09:20
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7447 forum posts
230 photos

I usually get P&N(made just up the road), or Sutton, from over the ditch, but last time I got two slot drills (long and standard), they were P&N, but the 4 mm reamer came from South Africa, seems to be a similar quality tool.

Ian S C

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