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Ajohnw15/07/2015 16:30:02
3631 forum posts
160 photos

I don't know where the Diana of my youth was made but it was spring powered and well over 12 ft/lbs as supplied.

My understanding about the 12 ft/lbs was that the level was down to safety. I have a few years to go before I reach 70. The safety aspect has a knock on effect. When my son was around 10 I bought an air rifle more for something for us both to do together. Targets initially and then thought why not shoot a few rabbits for the pot. They aren't really powerful enough and it can be rather cruel. One for instance was found by a dog when it eventually died with 3 pellets in it. Another from the sound of the crack was a clean head shot. I have no idea how long it took for that one to die.

The knock on effect of the limit is that people have ways of getting round it even on pcp's and both can be arranged to get round police checks. To be completely legal a FAC is needed which is also ok for shooting 7.62mm full bore nato round in designated places. 22 magnum in a lot more places. It's a lot less trouble getting a shotgun.license and those cause a lot more problems and really are lethal especially with certain cartridges in them.

The real problem in this area though is that say 1,000,000 pellets come out of air guns one year. No one will hear about those that didn't cause any problems and that may have been all of them.

The only exploding PCP's I have come across have had the wrong sort of grease used on them. And one I vaguely remember that was over charged.

John

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Edited By Neil Wyatt on 15/07/2015 20:57:44

Vic15/07/2015 16:57:38
3074 forum posts
8 photos

Yes, I did have the smooth twist in mind Mike. I shot FT a little a few years back and always struggled in the wind. The last rifle I have is a FWB and the barrel imprints the pellets quite badly. Many reckon heavy rifling really isn't needed but most of the German stuff is intended for indoor use so wind isn't a problem!

Capstan Speaking15/07/2015 17:11:28
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177 forum posts
14 photos

Controls were introduced by The Firearms (Dangerous Air Weapons) Rules 1969.

Sub 12flb pellets will not cope with much more energy. PCP guns are tamper-proof now. In any event a chronograph cannot be fooled.

No animal may be shot lawfully unless it is on the list of pest species and is actually being a pest. The land occupier's permission is required.

Gun crime in the UK has been falling steadily for the past ten years. We don't need any misinformation.

Clive Hartland15/07/2015 17:35:33
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2820 forum posts
40 photos

In Germany you are not allowed to use an air weapon for pest control and they are all used for target shooting.

Regarding power, i had a Diana that definitely exceeded 12 ft lb, and would give a blue flame from the barrel, dieseling. I have seen a 9mm air gun that went right through 1" planks of pine wood. The thing about PCP air guns is that they are re-coiless which aids accuracy. Now they have designed a valve that is not regulated as my new Walther Rotax PCP has. Rifling developments continue as the smooth bore, with just a few inches of rifling is now very popular. safety is the users duty as no projectile must leave private property so a back garden needs a safe backstop. Shooting of pest specie is strictly defined and you should not shoot back garden pigeons or magpies but on a farm with permissions its OK.

Clive

Ajohnw15/07/2015 18:10:15
3631 forum posts
160 photos

Captain raises some interesting points -

Anyone who wants to shoot a rabbit and there are a fair few who do must seek the land owners permission. My problem is that I feel it's cruel given the power the guns have.

Afraid it is possible to tamper with air rifles of both types that will pass tests but I would ask anyone who knows how to not pass on any details. In some areas of the country one method is pretty common. Why - because to kill a rabbit with any certainty it has to be used.

Crime involving real fire arms isn't always reported nationally so I would take comments that it is falling with a pinch of salt. Armed robbery may be on the decrease but frankly I doubt if things like drive by shooting and related are.

John

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Neil Wyatt15/07/2015 20:57:18
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Moderator
19033 forum posts
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80 articles

As admin I should say I'm OK with these subjects being discussed responsibly, but am sensitive if any dodgy practices appear to be condoned or explained, not least as my wife has narrowly avoided being 'plinked' during her work. That's why I edited your post John, although that trick was well-known when I was a teenager.

It's interesting that,for whatever reasons, there seem to be more incidences of air reservoirs failing than model steam boilers, given that the majority of the latter are self-builds. I wonder how the numbers compare?

Neil

Vic15/07/2015 21:37:28
3074 forum posts
8 photos

Being able to adjust the power of PCP's is essential in some target sports to ensure you remain competitive without breaking the rules. Many of the top PCP's used in FT started out as 6ft lb ten metre guns that had their power levels tweaked, it's not difficult to do if you know what you're doing. You must have at least one Chrono though and better still checked with a second unit.

shaun hill15/07/2015 22:08:22
18 forum posts
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 15/07/2015 20:57:18:

As admin I should say I'm OK with these subjects being discussed responsibly, but am sensitive if any dodgy practices appear to be condoned or explained, not least as my wife has narrowly avoided being 'plinked' during her work. That's why I edited your post John, although that trick was well-known when I was a teenager.

It's interesting that,for whatever reasons, there seem to be more incidences of air reservoirs failing than model steam boilers, given that the majority of the latter are self-builds. I wonder how the numbers compare?

Neil

Neil, most of the failings of pcp cylinders are due most of the time to them being filled with oxygen or other industrial gases, The two that i heard about failing was basically due to user error, one way over pressurised the cylinder, and one had been bodging around,

I have made my living for the past twenty five years manufacturing and repairing pcp rifles, and have seen more or less every pcp rifle made, some in my opinion are good others bad, the older pcps where always over engineered but the downside to that they where heavy, but some of the newer rifles leave a lot to be desired regarding cylinder thickness etc, most are made to the minimum spec required, unlike model steam boliers that are way over engineered in comparison.

I have seen many rifles modified over the years that in my opinion are dangerous, usually done to try increasing the power over the uk limit, usually done by some have a go gunsmith who has no idea what they are doing, severely affecting the structural integrity of the rifle.

The problem is, currently pcps dont need any sort of testing, as long as the cylinder holds under 500cc of air no test is required, so it opens the door for all sorts of modders and fred in the shed manufacturing, i personally think every pcp should be pressure tested and then checked every few years the same as diving cylinders and steam boilers, lets face it, there is in excess of 3000psi in these rifles and some are nearly 30 years old,

I have not seen the book thats being disgust, so i cant comment on the rifles cylinder and pressure parts, but all i can say to anyone making one use proper spec tube and pressure test it,

Ady116/07/2015 01:28:21
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5090 forum posts
736 photos

I don't know where the Diana of my youth was made

Diana fishing stuff was Japanese if memory serves(1980s). The guns were a side issue, they were just a cheap alternative to webley etc

They may be German. The company has always been been very coy about its origins when advertising in the UK

In the 1980s they had huge fishing catalogues, fishing porn for fishermen, the biggest in the business

Edited By Ady1 on 16/07/2015 01:43:05

JohnF16/07/2015 09:59:02
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1152 forum posts
190 photos

Many of the old Diana rifles probably up to about 1980/5 were manufactured by Millard Bros in Scotland they were branded Milbro Diana. We were selling these up to the time they ceased production I guess they were made under license form Dianawerk who also made the Original air rifles as well as their own brand Diana.

Eugene16/07/2015 10:03:57
131 forum posts
12 photos

My late father used to say that any gardener pestered by rabbits was in need of a small boy with an air rifle ..... that's how I got my first one at age eleven. I was shown how to use it safely and responsibly.

In those days all you needed a ten bob Gun Licence which also covered shotguns, obtainable over the counter from your Post Office, I had one though I doubt many people bothered. I fail to be convinced that any licensing system will reduce the criminal or irresponsible use of guns, or ever has. I've gone through the ten bob job, the no licence at all job when that system was phased out and the new one brought in, and the modified legislation we now have; all in my experience and opinion equally futile. if a criminal wants a gun he'll get one and not bother with any legal process. The irresponsible and thoughtless will always be so; no bit of paper will alter that.

In response to John W1, a 12 ft/lb air rifle is perfectly adequate for rabbits and squirrels when used sensibly and accurately. The maximum practical range is about 35 yards, and only head shots should be taken. Using those two simple rules hundreds of thousands of small pests are humanely despatched every year.

I use a 12 ft / lb PCP .22 air rifle equipped with an excellent telescope sight for rabbits; I don't like the .22 rim fire on the stony ground we have, the potential for ricochets is too great, and a shotgun often smashes them up too badly for the table.

Eug

Vic16/07/2015 10:52:06
3074 forum posts
8 photos

I still think the holy grail for air rifle design is a single stroke pneumatic. They were popular in 10m competition in the past but those were only 6 ft lb. No one seems to have been able to make a 12 ft lb version. Not only would they be safer - no storage of high pressure air required, but it would keep you fit as well! I guess we've all just become seduced by PCP's and we've become lazy. In the not too distant future perhaps folks will be too feeble to even cock the old break barrel ones more than half a dozen times! smiley

Ajohnw16/07/2015 12:55:49
3631 forum posts
160 photos
Posted by Eugene Molloy on 16/07/2015 10:03:57:

My late father used to say that any gardener pestered by rabbits was in need of a small boy with an air rifle ..... that's how I got my first one at age eleven. I was shown how to use it safely and responsibly.

In those days all you needed a ten bob Gun Licence which also covered shotguns, obtainable over the counter from your Post Office, I had one though I doubt many people bothered. I fail to be convinced that any licensing system will reduce the criminal or irresponsible use of guns, or ever has. I've gone through the ten bob job, the no licence at all job when that system was phased out and the new one brought in, and the modified legislation we now have; all in my experience and opinion equally futile. if a criminal wants a gun he'll get one and not bother with any legal process. The irresponsible and thoughtless will always be so; no bit of paper will alter that.

In response to John W1, a 12 ft/lb air rifle is perfectly adequate for rabbits and squirrels when used sensibly and accurately. The maximum practical range is about 35 yards, and only head shots should be taken. Using those two simple rules hundreds of thousands of small pests are humanely despatched every year.

I use a 12 ft / lb PCP .22 air rifle equipped with an excellent telescope sight for rabbits; I don't like the .22 rim fire on the stony ground we have, the potential for ricochets is too great, and a shotgun often smashes them up too badly for the table.

Eug






I shot several rabbits at well under 35yds so they must be made of much stronger stuff where I was shooting. Perhaps they were wearing crash helmets. Typical FAC air rifles give a good idea of what is really needed for pest control. That's what they are generally used for, cheaper than rim fire and safer too but perhaps not now that certain calibres are available that splinter on impact so that ricochet isn't so much of a potential problem.

My Diana would have dated from the 50's. Probably mid. I have no idea of power but I used to shoot precision 22 rim fire rifle at a works club uk style, out wards scoring targets, bull equivalent to hitting a pin head. I took it there a couple of times but there was a problem. If I hit the bull cleanly a flattened pellet would bounce back and hit me on the head. More recently I took a pcp to another club and used it at 25 yds. No where near as much power or accuracy as a result. In fact when lamping rabbits with it the pellet can actually be seen travelling for a long way towards the target. At more realistic distances it can be persuaded to shoot more or less pellet on pellet.

John

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Vic16/07/2015 13:20:56
3074 forum posts
8 photos

To prevent unnecessary suffering I think at least 25 ft lbs in .22 is more appropriate for pest control. Plenty of folks will "have a go" though with a standard Air rifle and once an injured animal wanders off is a case of "out of sight out of mind". If, and its a big "if" it was made illegal to shoot any animal or bird with less than say a weapon of 25 ft lbs then I'd be happy for Air Weapons to remain unlicensed but as things are I suspect an awful lot animals suffer and that's not including pets like cats and dogs that get shot by yobs from bedroom windows. I think the death of a young child shot by an air rifle has spurred the call for licensing in Scotland?

MSPF.16/07/2015 14:03:21
5 forum posts

OK, I've had enough. I'm off. Which will please those of you who are uncomfortable with my comments.

I have never come across a bigger bunch of soft jessies and establishment kiss a%$$3$ in my life.

Misinformation my eye. It's people like you that got us the limp wristed 12 ftp in the first place. Happy to see 25ftp used on bunny's and forget the license. HMM. how do you buy a 25ftp rifle without a license. That does not make sense, unless of course you know where you can buy one under the table, so to speak.

I thought this was a 'Model Engineering Forum', not a soap box for commercial and establishment yes men.

Regards all. Don't bother cheering I wont be listening

Bye bye girls.

Vic16/07/2015 15:21:31
3074 forum posts
8 photos

It was forget the licence for 12 ft lbs like they're getting in Scotland but never mind. wink

Ajohnw16/07/2015 16:54:33
3631 forum posts
160 photos

This is way of target (pun) from the thread really but I agree with Vic except from USA practice and other info 18 is probably ok but problems get worse as power goes down.

Ballistics can roughly be scaled after a fashion so this page can be used to put power into perspective in terms of accuracy in particular

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympics/shooting/4725546.stm

Power 2,500ft lbs, bullet velocity - from memory they don't even go subsonic until something like 1,000 yds. The V bull isn't that small and the target itself is rather large both are easily visible at the distances mentioned and further. They use target sights not telescopic, 2 round holes. The ranges have flags dotted about on them so that people can adjust their sights to account for even a breeze let alone any wind. Both often vary along the path of the bullet.

Rabbits, air rifle at 35 yds no, maybe with something of an iffy kill aspect at 35ft or even less. The comment that is often made by people is that oh you need to hit a very particular rather small spot on their heads. Honest gun shops will sometimes mention that even pigeons can be a problem. They do get people come in who have pigeon problems. This area touches on why people with fire arms licenses who shoot animals always go for more power than they theoretically may need. All sorts of things come into it even shooting up hill or down hill and etc The other aspect is clean kills and risk. Risk limits power.

There are plenty of things that can be shot at local air rifle and even some gun clubs that allow both types of gun. Those can also often train people in the use of fire arms with club guns. Some air rifle field sports are very difficult to master. There is plenty to do without usually maiming animals.

winkI'm a frustrated gun slinger. My eye accommodation isn't really good enough for target sites any more and worse still while I was near a lighting strike that killed several people the end of my elbow was mildly damaged and I can no longer shoot prone. Sad as I was in the middle of taking up full bore which is very challenging. Far more so than others I have tried. The beebs description of full bore shooting isn't entirely accurate. The targets have trenches in front with people in them who mark the positions of shots with a rather long pole.

John

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MalcB16/07/2015 17:20:31
257 forum posts
31 photos
Posted by Vic on 16/07/2015 10:52:06:

I still think the holy grail for air rifle design is a single stroke pneumatic. They were popular in 10m competition in the past but those were only 6 ft lb. No one seems to have been able to make a 12 ft lb version. Not only would they be safer - no storage of high pressure air required, but it would keep you fit as well! I guess we've all just become seduced by PCP's and we've become lazy. In the not too distant future perhaps folks will be too feeble to even cock the old break barrel ones more than half a dozen times! smiley

Vic,

I had an Air Logic Genesis in .22 single stroke that was producing around 11.5 ft/lbs. trouble was it was like using a bull worker. Don't think he ever managed to get the .177 to do 12 ft/lbs.

The .22 was consistent thru' the chrono over about 8-10 shots then it used to " throw one" in at around 10 ft/lbs or so. Did a lot of experimenting with seals and pellet combinations, plus some mechanical changes ( including barrel ) but never managed to resolve before selling on.

Quite collectable now.

Bowber16/07/2015 17:52:14
169 forum posts
24 photos

There's a lass down the road from us does full bore target shooting, her rifle was over £3K surprise

Re licencing, is there plans for the UK? I have an old BSA Cadet Major and a newer co2 rifle.

Steve

Vic16/07/2015 18:04:09
3074 forum posts
8 photos

No plans for licensing here yet Steve as far as we know? wink Just those north of the border.

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