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Member postings for Phil Whitley

Here is a list of all the postings Phil Whitley has made in our forums. Click on a thread name to jump to the thread.

Thread: Making Holes in Copper Sheet
19/04/2019 21:05:10

may not be suitable for your purpose, but if you drill a smaller hole for a length of threaded rod, and the select a couple of sockets from a socket set, the smaller having the external diameter of the hole you want, and able to fit inside the larger with a reasonable ammount of clearance, assemble them onto the threaded rod with one socket on either side, and tighten the nuts thus forcing the smaller socket through the sheet and into the inside of the larger one, you will find you can form a very usable socket into a flat sheet. I have done this in steel, aluminium and copper. Anneal it first! you could even turn up a couple of dies on the lathe, but I have found that sockets work just as well, provided you can find the correct diameters.

Thread: 'War Department' (arrow) Marking
15/04/2019 19:21:52

Lots of history here, it is VERY old! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broad_arrow

Thread: Dialect expressions
13/04/2019 20:28:59

When I moved from Pudsey, in W yorks, to Bridlington, I thought they were rum uns, but when we moved to Langtoft on the east yorkshire wolds, 3 years later in 1963, I couldnt understand a word of what some of the broader folk said, as they spoke a dialect based on old norse, and still used a lot of old norse words, and sentence construction. hence a greeting was, "Wa noo mi lad, wets thoo a deein of? spoken in a high pitched nasal brouge at 100 miles an hour, and I just stared back at him not understanding a word he had said!

A gate post is "an ord yat stean" Bridlington gate becomes "Brig yat" A path or pavement is a "trod" etc etc. I remember one ocassion at a pig farm when a large boar escaped, and the farmer, a bow legged old boy in his eighties came out to see what all the fuss was about. I was told "ees a bad un keap outat road on im" When one of his lads asked what they were going to do, he said, "assl get im gannin, an thoo get yon big mell, and wen he comes, thoo nap im ower't skorp wit mell as ard as thee can" The lad picked up a lump hammer (mell from mjolnir, Thors hammer), and when the old boy, who was a bit unsteady on his feet chased the boar round the corner, the lad wacked it over the head with the "mell" and it went down like a shot, it was quickly rolled into the bucket on the front of a tractor, and deposited unceremoniosly back in its pen.

We used to have some serious winters, on one occasion we recorded -22 overnight in a greenhouse, and the old boys would come out with "thoo watch thisen, its reet sleip ower yon tha knaws" ( be careful it is slippery over there you know) but always pronounced sleap as SleeeIP. odd till I found out that Sleipnir was Odins eight legged horse that could gallop over ice without losing its footing! when you got to know these old boys, they were wonderful people, salt of the earth types, who are sadly, like the accent, all but gone now. Although I still have my workshop at Langtoft, it has become a dormitory village, it has no shops, the pub and school have closed, and it is an altogether more humdrum place for it. I do miss them all, they were great people.

Thread: Machinery Directive and CE marking
07/04/2019 18:16:54

 

I concur with your brother, a fabric aircraft cover does not require CE marking and it would be illegal to put on on them. In fact they need no approval of any kind.

Put into use is in MD 1.7.1, 1.7.4, 4.1.3, and The Supply of Machinery (Safety) Regulations 2008v (UK implementation of directive section 3.9 says " A person who is not a responsible person shall not put machinery into service unless it satisfies the applicable essential health and safety requirements and is safe" i.e is CE compliant and section 7 says "
(1) No responsible person shall place machinery on the market or put it into service unless it is safe.
(2)Before machinery is placed on the market or put into service, the responsible person must— (a)ensure that the applicable essential health and safety requirements are satisfied in respect of it; (b)ensure that the technical file is compiled and made available in accordance with the requirements of Annex VII (Part 7 of Schedule 2), part A;

The other directives have similar provisions.

Robert G8RPI.

Here is an interesting though Robert, for the purpose of this document, what is the definition of "safe". Is that "safe under all circumstances", is it "not likely to cause an accident under normal use" then of course you would have to define "normal use". Why would you build a machine that you knew to be unsafe? Is it possible to build a machine that is safe in all circumstances? I would posit that it is not possible. It is still possible to have an accident on a lathe, even if it meets all the HSE requirements, so is it safe or not? What is the definition of "Responsible person", As I said, a buck passing excercise, have you ever wondered why HSE do not inspect a factory before it is put into use? I will tell you, if they had inspected and passed it as safe, they would be responsible for that safety, as it is, they neatly pass the buck to "the responsible person", and only inspect the workplace after an accident has happened, in order to decide who was at fault, ie apportion blame, and collect revenue, non of which is paid to the victim. CE compliance does not assure safety, it merely shifts the responsibility for safety. The above is a very badly drafted document, that any reasonably competent lawyer could drive a coach and horses through unless there are clear definitions of what constitues "safe" and "responsible person".  "i.e is CE compliant and section 7 says " is this wording part of the document, or are they your words?

Edited By Phil Whitley on 07/04/2019 18:23:30

07/04/2019 17:44:16

If it is "pretty clear" Robert, why are you asking the question? You most certainly CAN import goods which are not CE marked, what you cannot do is offer them for sale , as importer, you are responsible for providing CE assurance if you resell. All equipment put into use in a workplace must be safe, however, this is only incidentally under the CE legislation, first and foremost is the HSE requirement. You can build or import items that are unsafe (should you want to), who would stop you? As has been said in this thread the mechanism and manpower required for enforcement does not exist, and the only requirement under CE is that you posess paper work that "assures compliance" If it is only you using it in a private workshop, it is no ones business but your own, and the risk ends with you. much of the electrical equipment from Bangood etc does not comply with CE, ( watch John Ward and bigclivelive on you tube to see some of it being tested) but it is sold worldwide, and anyone can order from them and import effectively into the EEA without certification. Whether that is a wise thing to do is another matter, but it does not change the fact that the mechanism to prevent this happening simply does not exist. My point is that CE marking does not prove safety or compliance, or that the goods have recieved any testing independantly of the manufacturers, it merely assures that the manufacturer, and the importer are in possesion of documentation that states that the item in question meets the required CE standard. Yesterday, I fixed my mothers vacuum cleaner, it is made in China, badged Morphy Richards, and some importer somewhere in the UK probably has a dusty shelf with a load of CE compliance paperwork on it pertaining to this product.The problem is that the actual product is a piece of shoddily made plastic trash that is barely able to perform its said function seems to be irrelevant. Your fawning deference to this supposed standard is rather odd, As I said before, we used to set the standards for the world, and we have let those standards slip terribly. CE is not a system to maintain or raise standards, or to ensure safety, it is an elaborate buck passing exercise where the responsibility for the safety of a product is shifted from the EU back onto the manufacturer, or the importer, which means, in the event of an accident, unless you can interest your (now virtually non existent) trading standards dept, you will end up suing the importer or manufacturer yourself to get compensation for the damage caused by their shoddily made goods. Good luck with that. It seems that you actually WANT to live in a police state where everything and everyone is "compliant" You should watch Terry Gilliams brilliant movie "Brazil". It is a very clear illustration of the type of world the EU is trying to create with this type of legislation. The sooner we are out the better, and then we can dump CE and set real standards and start refusing the piss poor quality we get from the far east, via European legislation, at the moment.

Thread: Motor Gland
07/04/2019 16:32:36

looks like 3/4 conduit, which means, no you wont get one anywhere unles you can find an old sparks like me who has some in a tin under the bench! If you have any long established electrical engineers near you, try them!

Thread: Colchester Triumph 7.5" (Round Head) Lathe
07/04/2019 12:28:12

Yes it might! that one is different to the student, but it does show a key which holds the gear in question to the second shaft, which may well be the cause of the failure! edit, just looked and I have a copy of that manual as well, but it is 11meg so it would be best for the op to download it himself!!

phil

Edited By Phil Whitley on 07/04/2019 12:32:05

Thread: Machinery Directive and CE marking
07/04/2019 12:15:10

SOD, Again For What It's Worth: the CE Marking Association and the EU both say there is no such thing as a 'China Export' trademark. Anyone who believe the lower mark means 'China Export' is misled, it appears to be an urban myth.

Well they would say that wouldnt they. The Chinese Export tale is just an excuse to dump goods on the European market which appear to carry a genuine CE mark, but are actually untraceable back to an original manufacturer, and have no paperwork compliance assurance available. realistically, you can only prosecute a manufacturer for non compliance if you know who and where he is! When was it first noticed that the accuracy checked paperwork included with Chinese machine tools was A) all identical, and B) bore no relevance whatever to the machine it was packed with? "When sleeping dragon wakes, whole world will tremble" may refer more to aggresive commercial techniques rather than outright aggression.

Thread: Colchester Triumph 7.5" (Round Head) Lathe
06/04/2019 19:56:23

Clive, as far as I can see the layout in the parts list for the mk1.5 student is the same, as is the lever layout on the outside of the box. The ratios might be different, but I think it is essentially the same as mine. There appears to be a pin 5649 that anchors the gear to the second shaft, and also a double key, and a single key on the spindle which anchor the gears to the spindle. I would suggest that the failure of either would cause the sudden onset symptoms he has. At any rate, it looks like the second shaft at least will need to be removed. I have a pdf student manual, but it is resisting my attempts to send it!

Phil

06/04/2019 19:25:49

first thing is that the gear lever is in the wrong position, it should face upwards, and move from the 10 oclock position to the 2 oclock position, there is a pin through the second shaft which I think keys the gear to the shaft. I have a pdf manual for a roundhead student, which is essentially the same gearbox, I will see if I cam PM it to you.

Phil.

Thread: Machinery Directive and CE marking
06/04/2019 19:08:15
Posted by Rod Renshaw on 06/04/2019 17:48:43:

I am getting rather tired of all this willy waving

Thats good..............coming from a bloke called .....RODsmile

06/04/2019 17:10:40
Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 06/04/2019 05:00:49:

Phil,
the statement " let me clarify, CE marking is exclusively for goods offered for sale in the EEA " is incorrect. CE compliance (not just the mark) applies (with a few specific exceptions) to items "put into use" not just sold.
An item does not need a mecanisim to require compliance.

What was the Item your brother made that could not be marked (just the class is enough)?

I do have a through undersanding of this, unlike some. I do not think CE marking is great, thee process an enforcement is flawed but the underlying technical requirements are good.

Robert G8RPI.

Edited By Robert Atkinson 2 on 06/04/2019 05:17:59

My brother manufactures aircraft covers and associated ground equipment. www.cambraicovers.com

The type of equipment requiring CE marking is equipment which contains electrical or mechanical components which have to comply to standards, or have possible safety or environmental. implications .

this from https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/product/ce-mark/index_en.htm

1. Identify the EU requirements for your product

The EU-wide requirements are laid down in directives that cover different products or product sectors, for example:

  • Toys
  • Electrical equipment
  • Machinery
  • Medical devices
  • Lifts
  • Personal Protective Equipment

These directives lay down the essential requirements that products have to fulfil.

I don't know where you get the "put into use" statement from, I can find no reference to it anywhere in the current CE legislation. Are you referring to equipment being put into use after purchase? As I said before purchase is the operative, if you offer for purchase an new item which is covered by CE requirements, in the EEA, it must carry a CE mark, but the onus to assure compliance is on the manufacturer, not on external independant testing, as it used to be in the UK with BSI etc. CE most certainly does not apply to things you make yourself, and then later may offer for sale as a one off used item, be it a model, a mechanism you have built, or a piece of used workshop machinery. Do you really imagine that the vast amount of used engineering and other equipment offered for sale on ebay for instance is all CE approved?

05/04/2019 21:30:35

Robert, you seem to be determined to stretch this pointless thread to endless lengths, let me clarify, CE marking is exclusively for goods offered for sale in the EEA as new items that contain components or mechanisms that fall under the CE legislation, it does not cover the used, or second user market, despite the fact that there is no explicit statement to this fact in the regulations. There are a huge amount of manufactured items sold in the EEA that do not require CE marking, as they do not contain any mechanisms that fall under the CE requirement. My brother runs a business that is an approved military, aerospace and Nato manufacturing facility. He manufactures a product that is sold worldwide under these approvals, and also iso9001 etc etc. He was asked to tender for a contract to supply to a (shall we say) EU military who required that the product be CE marked. He explained at length to the aforesaid military that the item tendered for COULD NOT be CE marked, as it did not fall under the requirements of CE marking. One of his competitors, who was willing to stamp a spurious CE mark on the item, won the contract, and supplied the equipment, which turned out to be totally useless and substandard, to the point where it was scrapped (after it was paid for!), and the contract has gone out to tender again. You seem to be labouring under the misaprehension that the CE marking system is superior to anything that came before it, in actual fact it is nothing more than a paper based box ticking exercise that requires no external testing by independant testing houses, and puts the onus on the manufacturer of aforesaid goods offered for sale in the EEA to provide "assurance" (whatever that is) of compliance. This discussion, with a few notable exceptions, is akin to clerics arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin! If you are "involved in regulatory compliance" as part of your day job, you should have a thorough understanding of all this?

04/04/2019 20:24:46

I will add this to Neils (excellent) post!

CE marking is a certification mark that indicates conformity with health, safety, and environmental protection standards for products sold within the European Economic Area (EEA). The CE marking is also found on products sold outside the EEA that are manufactured in, or designed to be sold in, the EEA.

The operative here is "products SOLD" if you are not selling it, it does not need a CE mark

Yes, CE-marking by Self Certification can be performed in cases where harmonized standards cover all relevant safety aspects of a product. In accordance with the requirements of the applicable Directive, as manufacturer you can carry out the safety assessment procedures and compiling the required documentation

If you build it, and it kills you, it is your responsibility, no one elses, and certification is irrelevant because it was not an item for sale.

If you ask your employee to use it, you are responsible for that employees safety, no one else. I know many engineering firms who also make much of the equipment they use, for their own use only and not for resale, therefore do not need CE marks, but must comply with relevant HSE requirments under the safety at work regulations.

If you make something that produces EMI, and ofcom come knocking, it is your responsibility, and CE marking has nothing to do with this situation.

Google is your friend, and will provide all the answers you require, and many references. The main requirement for CE marking is that the manufacturer produces documentation that assures compliance, and any importer hold copies of the documentation. There is no requirement for any manufacturer to have any testing done, other than that he carries out himself in his own test facility. Given that everything made in China which needs a CE mark to be sold in the EU is so marked, regardless of compliance, tend to, shall we say, somwhat invalidate the integrity (if it indeed ever had any) of the CE system. As an electrical engineer, I could never understand why we should "harmonise" our electrical system with a group of countries in which the electrical regulation and safety records were vastly inferior to our own. When we leave, all this will be irrelevant. We need to remember that Britian set the standards in the first place!

Thread: Electric Motor
03/04/2019 20:33:36

I find that a bit of an odd statement, almost like saying "it will last longer if you don't use it". Starting a single phase motor under load is NOT a good idea as the starting charicteristics are such that not a lot of torque is developed at first, unles you are using the double capacitor type which are a bit better, but on load starting single phase is generally not a good idea. Having said that, most clutchless lathes will be on load of sorts, as the drive train and chuck will start with the motor. I think the reason that it say it for the Colchester is that the single phase motor was a bit underpowered on the roundhead students, which I believe had the matrix clutch fitted, but again, this does not make much sense, surely it should be "frequent start ups UNDER LOAD, will shorten the life of the motor" I know of no situation where running a motor unloaded or lightly loaded shortens the life. . Because of the way the rotor in a motor is always "chasing" ie, behind the magnetic field trying to catch it, little torque is developed under light loads, but the motor will draw correspondingly little current. When more load is applied, the rotor "slips" further behind the field, and torque rises as the magnetic field is stretched. I would drop tony@lathes.co.uk an email and ask about this. Interesting!

Edited By Phil Whitley on 03/04/2019 20:35:22

Thread: 2 pack, enamel...paint advice please!
03/04/2019 20:14:36

I spray if I want a real shine, but for most machinery, I use a roller, either foam, or flock, flock covers easier, and just use an oil resistant single pack machinery enamel, like Tractol, or Paragon enamel, used with white spirit or naptha as a thinner and cleaner. Dont bother cleaning the roller between coats, just wrap it in a polythene carrier bag, and reuse the next day, then discard the roller when finished. The thinner used to clean the roller is a lot more expensive than the new roller. The ones I use are about 100mm by 30mm, and it is surprising what an excellent gloss can be obtained very quickly with minimum effort. Paint finish is all in the prep. filler and several coats of primer, let it dry thoroughly, then wet flat, or dry denib if you cant be bothered, and gloss it! The problem with a perfect paint job is that first scratch, learn to live with it, or just look at the machine, but don't ever use it again!!

Thread: Mini lathe
25/03/2019 20:23:53

Sounds like you may have a duff diode or rectifier, you are getting an AC leak to a DC motor? I am no electronics wizz, but many on here are. I have just rebuilt a 200amp 3phase mig, and was advised to watch for arcing at the DC wire feed motor caused by faulty rectification!

Thread: Smoke detectors
24/03/2019 13:54:31

ROR would be best for a workshop, I assume that if you are in there, you will be aware it is on fire (ie, its not that large and only has one level), and will take appropriate action. Smoke detectors will be a nuisance, and are affected by all sorts of vapours, and also we have lots of problems with tiny insects mistriggering them. Fire extinguishers! I keep two CO2 a foam and a Water around the shop , best have a couple available outside the workshop to fight your way in! I had one serious workshop fire many years ago, when some hot metal from welding a sill (had the car on a roller) went straight through a plastic fuel pipe (I had checked at another point, where is was metal!) Whenever I start welding, I get an extinguisher, pull out the pin, and put it next to where I am working. Picked it up and put the fire out in seconds! My mate was half way to the next county! Not saying there is not a time when you should leave it to burn, just that if you are prepared for a fire, you can usually avoid that ever happening.

24/03/2019 13:41:14
Posted by duncan webster on 24/03/2019 10:37:49:

I've arranged the smoke alarm in my workshop with a normally closed relay between the battery and the circuit so you can press a button to disable it. The relay is fed off the lights, so when you turn the lights off the relay de-energises and the alarm is connected up again. You have to remember to press the button before starting any silver soldering jobs, but smoke from cutting oil doesn't seem to affect it. There again, I'm a bit pussyfooting when machining, cutters cost too much to be aggressive

OOH! I like that!!

Thread: Wentworth woodhouse
22/03/2019 12:53:26

Bugger, double posted again!

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