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Member postings for Ramon Wilson

Here is a list of all the postings Ramon Wilson has made in our forums. Click on a thread name to jump to the thread.

Thread: The mis-conception round bar is round
15/03/2011 09:58:35
Hi John, How's tricks?
Peeled Bar - You see, I said recall is a struggle at times. I do believe that was the term used by Uddeholm's for 'bright' as opposed to 'black' finish tool steel. Most of our tool steel though not all came from them and it's a term I do remember.
Looking at the Macreadys text again (BTW sorry about the poor reproduction - I can scan it again if needs be) and their comments on machinability of Cold Drawn compared with Hot Rolled.
Their description of Centreless Turning of hot rolled bar and subsquent final polishing through rotating rollers clearly states a high surface finish to close tolerances.
Looks like you have chosen wisely Andrew
Could it be that most material is now finished in this way as opposed to basic 'Cold Drawn' Everything has moved on so much since my last foot in a machine shop perhaps this is now the norm.
Regards - Ramon
14/03/2011 22:25:55
Hi guy's,
When Graham first mentioned this characteristic it rung a bell as I was sure I had seen it before on material used at work. I was not sure however this would be on all 'Cold Drawn Steel' as I could not remember ever having a problem with basic Bright bar. I can't recall being bothered by it at home either.
That is not to say it's roundness and dimensional tolerance can be taken as gospel - if you want that then you have to go to PGMS - but merely that it's much better suited to popping straight in a three jaw than ever black 'Hot Rolled Bar' is.
Looking at Andrews image this is exactly what I can remember so have been out to the workshop tonight and had a real good 'root' in the metal stock to see if I could find something similar.
About six weeks ago I purchased from my last company several lengths of En1a in varying diameters. Taking a close look at them there is no real indication of this helical characteristic. To me they look as I expected for 'Cold Drawn' . Going through the 'stash' however, I find that it is reasonably pronounced on some pieces of EN8 and EN34. What stainless I have though shows none.
My recollection (and that is becoming a struggle these days) is that this was most prevalent on bars of 'tougher' steels. For example we used to order B01 Arne tool steel both in black and bright finish and I'm sure that this (the bright) was where this helix was most prominent almost as if it had been 'coarsely' ground though that's not implying that it was!
Macreadys handbook gives a good description of the proccesses - I see Graham they denote 'Cold Rolled' as an incorrect term but that may, as you say, be an Americanism.
Some time back I was given some EN24T offcuts by an ex work colleague whose entire works is CNC out put. All the EN24T that I had used todate had been as I would have described as cold drawn but this had a very bright - almost highly polished finish. I haven't examined it close enough to say whether it is ground or turned but it is extremely smooth. When I asked about this I was told that the material came in as such for use in the automatic barfeeders.
Could it be then that the 'helical marked' material is as described in Macreadys as Centreless Turned as opposed to cold drawn? possibly with this kind of operation in mind. I don't ever recall specifically asking for it as opposed to black, bright or PGMS
Whatever I certainly concur with Graham et al that as supplied none of it is really suitable for use for other than the most basic of shafting if it has to go in any kind of a bearing.
As said however PGMS is very close toleranced and is a pleasure to machine - of which, regretably, my 'stash' contains such a limited (very) supply
This is the blurb from Macreadys 1990 sixth edition

Regards - Ramon

Thread: Castings problem remedial advice, please
05/03/2011 21:53:51
Whoever it was 'pre-machined' these castings for you Bill certainly set out to provide you with a firm challenge eh?
Still, it sounds like you have made a good start and have a basis from which to build.
Keep us posted on the progress
Regards - Ramon
Thread: Chemi Blacking
25/02/2011 22:36:10
Ah Mick, gone eh - like near everything else these days.
However how about this
Appears they do a litre kit for under £20 plus post. That's a lot of cylinders
Hope this helps - Ramon
24/02/2011 17:35:49
Are they steel cylinders Mick? If so Jenolite Kold Blak will do the trick though it does not wear as well as the professional process which involves heat I believe.
One of the model engineering suppliers used to sell a similar product at shows - sorry can't help you with a name perhaps someone else can help.
Kold Blak has a long shelf life - I bought mine in the mid eighties and it still works fine.
I'm sure others will add to this
Regards - Ramon
Thread: Improvements to a Linley Mill
24/02/2011 11:29:32

Hi Steve,
Yes all the coats were applied by hand but with a very soft brush about 30mm wide. I think even my long suffering but extremely tolerant wife would have protested at spraying cellulose indoors
The trick after the second coat is to keep the paint thin and get it on without brushing it out as each coat with cellulose disolves a little into the previous one. I gave a quick rub down with wet and dry - I would guess about 320 grit - after each five coats or so.
As I recall I did not set out to achieve a particularly good finish merely a smooth oneas the previous finish was marred by filled areas that were not level.
Many who visit still remark on the finish but it came from what's underneath the gloss not by layers of the gloss itself.
The gloss was International Paints 'yacht paint' and is one of the smoothest paints I think I've ever brush painted. I still have some left and have used it on at least two models. Regretably other colours tried since don't have the same characteristic.
Hope that helps - Ramon
Thread: Mill and lathe motor upgrades
23/02/2011 21:51:13
Hi Keith,
The motor above is steelbodied and much heavier than the Italian one which is aluminium as here.
Whilst the Indian one is not excessively noisy this is comparatively very quite and much smoother. If appearance and finish is a judge of quality then this is chalk and cheese - a far better product - but only time will tell
Regards - Ramon

Thread: Improvements to a Linley Mill
23/02/2011 21:25:16

The increase in versatility that the draw bar gave was soon realised but the mill had one big short coming in that it was too short! That cast iron base it sat on was very substantial but far too low. The cross slide handle was at mid thigh level and I'm not tall!
At some stage a decision was made to move it to a welded steel bench previously made and incorporate a drip tray too. At the same time I decided to strip it again and replace the bearings in the headstock. This time the paint was stripped off to the bare metal and repainted with some twenty coats of primer - one in the morn, one at night - house had the faint whiff of cellulose for a few days! Two coats of polyurethane grey top coat gave a finish that, the odd chip aside lasts to this day.
When that new Bridgeport arrived in 1986 I had to ask, well you would wouldn't you?. So a pattern was made and a new table and handwheel bracket cast at the local founders - now gone and sadly missed. After taking the skin off it sat outside for well over six months before a succession of Friday afternoons saw it milled. A leadscrew was cut too and a new nut made but it would be well into the late nineties before it was finally fitted.
I found this photo today - it shows the small table still in use and the part is off the
BR2 which was worked on from '92 -'96 - I think the table was finally changed around 98-99. It's also now in the outside workshop. As you can see that table really is quite small. Also note this is pre modification to the R/T. Completely jury rigged stops using clamps but it worked.
The new table was made in proportion to the saddle roughly the same as the Bridgeport
and gave a 24" table with 16" of travel. The original leadscrew is still on the saddle and has 6 thou of backlash which is not bad for something well over half a century old.
An Ortec DRO was fitted about 2002 and this latest improvement in fitting a VSD brings it nearly but not quite to staisfaction - A DRO is required for the quill and I reallymust replace that old bolt with a neat handle on the down feed stop bar.
Here are some pics of what it's current state is



As said elsewhere the new motor is of Italian manufacture. Very quiet, very smooth and extremely well priced.
So after some thirty odd years  I'm nearly there with this mill and that really is why I decided to post this. Over those years it has served me well and it's limitations have been stretched to some pretty alarming distances.
For the newcomer to the hobby there is far more available to you now than ever there was when I set out and particularly on the milling side. Putting aside the question of quality there is a vast amount of kit to tempt you but unless you have limitless resources then  a steady plod will get you there - if not quite as slow as this one.
Regards - Ramon




Edited By Ramon Wilson on 23/02/2011 21:36:37

Thread: Milling SFM or RPM
23/02/2011 20:38:29
Thanks Chris,
Whilst I do believe that you should prove things to yourself I'm sure some would agree that this is one area where percieved wisdom would not likely be challenged. Just goes to prove one should look at everything with an open mind.
I find your comments on the state of the endmill and the (relative) ease of which it cut very interesting. I certainly can't think of a situation where I would need to do likewise but I shall have no hesitation in trying if I do. Whether carbides would be gripped sufficiently to prevent shattering in my home made collets remains to be seen (unlikely I would think). Because of the limitations of my mill I tend to use small (HSS) cutters at shallow cuts but high feeds and as you say the cutters are easily reclaimed.
You are obviously well experienced, which I was not aware of so my apologies if my answer seemed in appropriate.
Regards - Ramon
23/02/2011 19:26:13
Well Chris 'tis true you can learn something every day. That's very interesting to hear.
I would never have considered it but there you go - 'it's in the pudding'.
Just as a matter of interest what kinds of cut were you taking and how did the cutter stand up to it in total?
Thread: Mill and lathe motor upgrades
23/02/2011 18:11:17
The motor you show is what I believe to be of Italian manufacture..........
It is the same type as I have purchased for my mill and I've just nipped out to the workshop to check.
This is the Indian motor now fitted to the Lathe

Unlike this the Italian motor appears plated with the manufacture
The legend reads -
This motor is without doubt quieter than the Indian one at top revs. I have taken on board your previous post regarding frequency and shall see if I can fathom out the tech talk in the Inverter destructions to see if it can be improved. As I have said though it's not obtrusive at average speeds just at the top end.
Thanks for your advice on the frequency change though - wouldn't have been aware of the possibilty to improve the noise level else
I will post a bit more on the Linley mil tonight and you will see the difference in motors
Regards - Ramon
Thread: Milling SFM or RPM
23/02/2011 17:39:41
Well Yes I did read it as that Chris but I have to admit as I've never seen anyone actually mill it in its hardened state I thought you meant the other.
'Eats Shoots and Leaves' springs to mind.
We did use to make the odd press tool parts from it in it's annealed state. Cutting speeds were well down using HSS cobalt cutters but the actual SFM I'm not sure, probably around 30 to 40 f/m. Despite having heat treatment facilities for normal tool steels this used to have to go out for treatment.
I take it it is annealed. If not I doubt you will mill it at all even with carbide but I may be wrong there as so much has moved on in the carbide world since I packed up. It's not a material that is usually machined other than by grinding which is probably why there's little reference to it in any of your books.
Sorry - There I was thinking I was being helpful
Regards - Ramon

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 23/02/2011 17:41:33

Thread: Fine finish on alloys
23/02/2011 10:06:00
Welcome to the 'Guild of Cat Skinners' Steve
Good to hear of a successful outcome
Regards - Ramon
Thread: Milling SFM or RPM
23/02/2011 07:53:49
Hi Chris,
We need to know the material you are cutting first.The speed varies with the material to be cut.
As a guide the cutting speed for mild steel can be taken as a basic 100 FPM - it can vary either side of this depending on type.
RPM is worked out with
Cutting Speed (CS) x 4
Dia of Cutter
The softer the material the speed increases and vice versa.
Hope this helps
Thread: Mill and lathe motor upgrades
22/02/2011 21:53:13
Hi Peter Kwil et al,
Just to reiterate really that the BFM motor lived up to Peters assessment. Actually before I ordered the motors I did consider fitting the Italian type to the Myford but just didn't want to have to mess about making an extension to the Myford mounting plate then trying to bolt it in in situ. As it turns out the two feet held on by two cap heads on the Italian motors could easily be replaced by two made from a couple of blocks of ally to suit the Myford plate. Hindsight eh? - wonderful
Had I have known that I would have definitely prefered to have gone down that route.
Having said that it is not that the noise from the BFM is obtrusive (except at the top end) but that the Italian has all the appearances of a much better produced item. Time will tell on that one.
I would just like to add that personally I have found Tony at Electric Motors 2Go very helpful, patient and informative each time I have had dealings with him. On both occasions items ordered have arrived with 24hrs too. No connection just satisfied.
Regards - Ramon
PS Peter - yes they are mine - check the IC threads on here

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 22/02/2011 21:54:32

Thread: Made me chuckle
22/02/2011 12:06:26
Don't know if it's universal throughout their stores but the cafeteria in John Lewis in Norwich is called "The Place to Eat"
Big sign hanging over the walkway as you approach says
Thread: Here we go again
22/02/2011 11:59:14
Yes me too Ian, Thought about you when I heard the news this morning
Good to hear you are okay
Thread: Improvements to a Linley Mill
21/02/2011 11:09:52
As mentioned elsewhere I have just updated my mill to variable speed control. This is the latest in a series of gradual improvements to this machine over some 35 years.
I bought this small machine in 1977 for the sum of £114 plus a Rodney milling attachment in part exchange. It had no motor and no collets but despite it's tatty paintwork and the score down one side of the tee slot the bedways were sound without a scrap of wear movement. The seller - GW Machine tools in Norfolk told me it was originally sold as a jig borer but at the time I put this down to sales talk but apparently this is true. When I initially stripped it down I was surpised to find that the leadscrews were ground - perhaps he was right. Last year when considering another machine I was told by someone at Warco -consulting from a book on milling machines that this was indeed so. - he also confirmed after all this time that the collets required were Schaublin.
This is the only pic I have of it as purchased but stripped ready to clean up - it's sitting in my third bedroom which was my workshop for many years - yes a bungalow in case you're wondering.

This shows it after that initial strip and repaint. You will notice it has a very small table -just 16" long with only 9" of travel but a good 6" travel in the Y axis. Its a very substantial piece of kitvery heavy and quite rigid. The early attempt to make a collet and nose piece was not that successful and it was not long before the first modification began.
The collet shape can best be described as having the appearance of a half size R8. Another attempt at making collets to fit 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 cutters was made this time utilising the original nose piece. Made from Silver steel and left unhardened they are still in use today though beginning to look a little worn - thing is they still work and are accurate. It would be over twentyfive years before two metric collets were finally made.
The motor was given to me by a work colleague - problem was he lived in Liverpool and I live on the oppposite side of the country and we both worked at that time in Tunisia So he brought it out to the rig as baggage and I brought it back the same way - I can still see it now wrapped in sacking rolling down the carousel at Heathrow - Cor Bet you'd get away with that now eh!
Three years after purchase saw a career change and with it introduction to the 'real world' of engineering. Exposure to lots of machines soon led to realising most of the Linleys shortcomings and the first mod took place. The one piece drive shaft and spindle was cut in two, the drive shaft drilled through from both ends and the spindle drilled too. Reassembled with a connecting ring this enabled a draw bar to be used. A range of tooling was then gradually made over the years all the shanks made from tool steel
Clockwise from left - two MT#1 holders, two fly cutters (the shank is interchangeble with the boring head. Small drill chuck (a limitation of the machine) Shell end mill - very rarely used and two FC3 cutter holders with a 10mm weldon shank holder made only recently. The collets are in the middle with the original nose piece (tightened with two 'C' spanners)
A better vise than the Rodney one seen was purchased but apart from that very little was done until the late nineties. However in 1986 my company purchased a brand new Bridgeport and this would make a big difference
This is getting long so more a bit later.
Hope this is of interest to someone.
Regards - Ramon

Thread: Fine finish on alloys
20/02/2011 22:10:44
Steve, take a small block of flat steel preferably ground like gauge plate and stick some wet and dry abrasive paper to to it with double sided tape. Start with about 320 /400 grit. Use Parafin as a lubricant and lap in circular/figure of eight motions - by reducing the grit to 600 /800 you will achieve the finish you desire I'm sure - this is tried and tested
Hope that helps - Ramon
Thread: Mill and lathe motor upgrades
20/02/2011 21:05:05
Recently Peter Gain posted on this section a thread on 'Electric Motor Noise'.
This came at a very opportune time for me as I was literally just in the throes of considering to fit an 'inverter control' drive to my lathe. My oft mentioned friend John had recently fitted a Newton Tesla drive to his S7 and very impressive it was too - this was the first time I had seen such a set up running and the smoothness, relative quietness and controlability was very convincing.
Not unnaturally Peters concerns raised several of my own and I spent some time talking to the various suppliers of such units. I was particularly concerned not to end up with something noisier than the original single phase Myford supplied motor.
A couple of years ago I had need to replace a one and a half HP French made single phase motor. The extortionate cost of rewiring this, as a direct replacement was not available, soon became apparent. After a Google search I settled on an Italian made motor from a company called Electric Motors 2 Go. This motor was inexpensive, a third of the cost of rewiring and has proved to be a very good alternative.
I decided in the end then to purchase, from this same company, not only a motor for the lathe, which it turns out, to be of Indian manufacture but another Italian one of different design for the Mill . A call to Newton Tesla confirmed that one inverter could be used for either mill or lathe and a suitable socket and separate plugs supplied.
I have just finished replacing the motors and wiring the NT controls and inverter all in. The wiring was very straightforward and the whole thing works perfectly. Just as Peter commented the lathe motor does have a very slight whine to it at the top of the range but overall it's a big improvement on what was there before. This is not to undermine anything that Peter has said, indeed we have been exchanging emails on the subject for some time and his experiences on the Indian made motors particularly has been very helpful and timely. It has to be said that the overall quality of the Indian motor in no way matches that of the Italian one. In fact the foot mount was loose because the screws were bottoming out in blind holes but it was short work to put that right. I'll let you know if they vibrate loose - yes they are fitted with stud lock!
The Italian motor on the mill is just superb. So quiet that the bearings in the ballrace on the intermediate pulley can be heard rolling. Perhaps a few words and pics of the mill is worth another thread as quite a bit of work has been done to it since first purchased to improve it
I have often looked at the various adverts for this modification to equipment and wondered if it was all a bit uneccessary but can already see this is one of those things that I "should have done it years ago".
All in all then a very worthwhile exercise.
Hope this is of interest to someone - more on the mill a bit later.
Regards - Ramon

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 20/02/2011 21:08:07

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