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Member postings for Chris Mate

Here is a list of all the postings Chris Mate has made in our forums. Click on a thread name to jump to the thread.

Thread: Self extracting drawbar for mill
12/05/2022 08:26:22

Hi, thanks for showing this.

I spend some time trying to do this on my mill, however the mill I got do have a space, but the space is not squared, it goes V shape towards its top, so I machined a nut to fit there, screw it and lock it to the new drawbar, however if I try to loosen the MT4, the nut jams in the V somewhat, which throws off my torque feeling for loosing the MT4......It does work overcoming this, however it does not feel right. I can sort of seeing whats going on there through the 2x Wedge holes in the spindle.

My selution would be to machine the spindle square in that area if I can....I will think about this.

Thread: What Did you do Today 2022
17/04/2022 21:44:36

Aligned my mill head a bit better: Vertical for X-axis movement to bed
So busy with facemill experiments, I decided to revisit my mill head tramming(Swivel part to zero mark) to seeif I can get it horizontally more precise so cutters cut front and rear as it moves.
-I did this by using a marked bit(No 1) on the facemill. I facemill a length long enough on aliminium.
-After the cut I measure the difference with feeler guages......Forward direction=.002".....After cut same tip turned by hand=.009". I got it to that by using by big square from bed and indicator moving quil up/down, the problem was fine movements of the head with a hammer was not something I liked..

-So today I got another idea:
-I used a shash clamp clamped to top of gearbox/head horizontally, now I have long leverage. It ends up very easy and light force to move head very controlable.
-I used a dial test indicator just to see movement, so the head must move clockwise a bit.

It was rather quik I end up with an easy adjust using the long end of clamp, after slacking the 3x retaing nuts of the head to column. This got me to within .001" according to feeler guages(Go no go). To get it more precise I think I would need one of those cylindrical indicators. I ordered a Walter 40mm shoulder mill/MT4 with 4x insert-type for aliminium & steel/cast iron. Receiving that I will relook at this and see how that design plays out, and how the finish may look.

Edited By Chris Mate on 17/04/2022 21:45:02

Edited By Chris Mate on 17/04/2022 21:46:52

Edited By Chris Mate on 17/04/2022 21:48:06

Thread: Face milling on Warco Gearhead Universal (RF45 clone)
10/04/2022 17:21:37

I tried something today I thought about before but forgot about it,

I chose a lathe 12mm toolholder(Cheap chinese type)=PSBNR1215H09 with insert=41005V and bolt it just like that into the 80mm facemill brazed carbide cutter( brazed holders) and start cutting with the other 3 retracted.

This gave me a good finish as I could ever wished for. I rotate the insert for a new fresh point to cut, and it was only very slightly hardly noticable better. I took a no adjust finish pass in each case, on return it don't seem to cut.

I tried two 10mm shorter toolholders I though might work and gave good finish on lathe, but no it did not work, finish simmilar to original carbide holders before sharpening. I dumped the feeler guage method and bolt them with scratch method on work to holder-This was the best result from the brazed carbide holders but dont match the Lathe toolholder results.

I saw a video from DoubleBoost where he re visited an indexable facemill 50mm I think and did a scratch test on work to see if all inserts cut. They all did make contact, but did not remove the same with of material, I thought this was interesting.

Edited By Chris Mate on 10/04/2022 17:22:12

Edited By Chris Mate on 10/04/2022 17:23:34

Edited By Chris Mate on 10/04/2022 17:27:17

08/04/2022 21:45:48

80mm Facemill cutter with x brazed carbide tips:
I assume this is not by ar a good cutter compared to indexable cutters. I used feeler guage to line up tips, which I know is not 100% ideal, but the Dial Test indicatoe here don't really work for me lining up the tips.

Hi, I carried out the following further experiment with a 80mm facemill cutter with 4x brazed carbide tips I got with mill before I venture out and buy a indexable cutter wait for options from dealer.

1-I used a 30x30mm aliminium bar about 15cm long clamped in vice. I took 0.1mm cuts and find it to be rough and it keeps on cutting les and less going through it up to x times without adjusting depth further.
On removing and inspection of bits they were blunt and tips weared off from 5mm steel I cut off before.

2-I resharpen them with a dremill diamond blade..Thats what I had and it works great.The tips were sharp.
-I found it now cuts freely, however even my cranking speed as slow as I can do with hands, it still leave scratch marks....Tips too sharp. I noticed on cranking X-axis back it hardly re-cuts with sharpen tips.

3-I then sharpen tips again with small roundish corner. Now I get a much better surface finish, and dont need to recut actually, but if I do it takes off onle where I probably cranked with varying speed.

4-I then resharpen tips again with a mouch rounder point, and now I start to get the finish I was looking for.
Its cutting freely at 0.1mm cuts. I also tested this on metal and was surprised as well.

5-Next step is to resharpen at even more larger round tips.....

The dealer suggest I buy a 50-60mm cutter, choices to make, however I was thinking if IN stick to a 80mm cutter the surface speeds will be higher for same revelutions of mill, and that may benifit me cutting larger areas as well as smaller more interrupted ones.......Not sure yet. I am now a bit confused about which inserts on indexable cutters-??

Thread: DRO----How accurate
03/04/2022 22:48:32

Hi, Niel Lickfold..........I accept that my mill is not perfect and a drillpress with a X/Y bed fitted at best.

As far as I can see its not that if my mill bearings are ball bearings(I was told it had taper roller bearings, however the bogus manual with it says ball bearings. I think for what I got, I am happy to get a way around the problem messing with the Dial Indicator when I lock the quil, actually at .01 I cannot see movement at the tip of the spindle when this is happenning with a .01 Test Dial Indicator, however I accept if I use a .001 Test dial indicator I might very well see something. I think whatever there is, the way the quil function at best up & down in a sleave situation, it amplifies the further from the centre you mount your indicator for use to see where you going by using the fine adjust, of course you cannot monitor the centre of the spindle because its turning.

Ignore bearing problems for this argument, those can be considered "faults", however the Quil/Spindle relationship might be just an engineering crossroads.
I see it this way, and mabe wrong here: A Lathe's spindle does not have this type of a problem, because it does not have a quil, or any other spindle that does not have a quil its permanently locked. My point is with the quil at best, it will show some deflection because you monitor the quil and not the spindle, and a quil moving up and down, cannot ever be better as the best bearings made.

My question is do you think if the quil is as good as it can get("Perfect", you will have/can have zero deflection if you lock it-? I am trying to seperate an engineering issue due to desighn from faults.

03/04/2022 16:42:15

Mill Drill Quil Lock used with Fine Adjust provided on ZX-45[ZAY7045M] mill(New).

When Quil is locked the Dial Indicator needle deflects, a DRO here would probably not work well as a result.

Ver-1=A tap washer was used.....It worked but....

Ver-2=A stiff spring was used, but after I tested it with my wife with no mechanical experience, she was only 2/10 times successfull advancing the quil down 0.1mm without deflecting needle. I then realise the stiff spring was giving a too narrow band of tention to judge the drag applied before Locking the Quil without understanding how it works.

Ver-3=So I relook the effort and decided to use two weaker springs which gave a much wider flatter tention range that was enough before Locking the Quil and I could Lock/Unlock with the handle with in one turn, within 380 degrees, so now you look at the handle position, and you know instantly where Lock & Unlock position is.
The 3x washers can be played around for 1-Needed gap, 2-For determining the Quil Lock position.
My wife could repeat every time with this effort without the needle moving after Lock applied.

So here are the pictures for those that might be interested:

01a_preloadassembly-parts ver3-paint.jpg





31/03/2022 10:09:48

I added photos to explain some parts made & used:

1-I added positive tention to quil spring, made tool.
  -I prevent quil spring cap being jammed by tightning bolt.

2-I added preload before quil lock to prevent dial indicator give false readings.

3-I am now happy with this on my mill.
















Edited By Chris Mate on 31/03/2022 10:12:05

30/03/2022 05:42:20

YC Lui, remove your quil lock handle , then go to otherside and remove the round nut, it has an angled face as well as the opposing part of the quil, so it will try to lock in the Y- direction without the nut turning, see if you agree-?

29/03/2022 22:01:12

YC Lui, I understand what you saying, my problem is how the guage I am using to go down step by step as I mill.
Due to the problem you mention, I could not trust my guage, and my question was how accurate due to this would a DRO be.... I prefer the guage(Dial Indictor) knowing this now, because its very easy to observe a needle swinging rather han a DRO given numbers that jumps up or down and I have keep on computing that in my head.

Even without the selution the dial indicator will be an uneccassary effort to keep track at wich dept you were and where you aiming for.

Now with the selution what I see on the dial indicator after locking the quil is the same as before locking the quil is the same as which nect depth of cut I adjusted it to, so I go forward straight forward.

Think about it like this:Before the selution, if you advance the quil down say0.01mm then the dial indicator does indicate that, now you lock the quil your indicator jumos 0.05mm. Because of this it mess with your head as you going forward.

I know have a selution that workd for me with the tap washer, I am going to try to improve on thsat by maching two round pieces with a spring in the one to compress for preload, like the washer. The spring will be longer laster.

Note: The ideal in this Quil-Spindle-Fine adjust engineering would have been such that wherever you lock the quil down that is the position it sit before the pockdown, so it does not move. I can probably make a contraption doing this, but not at this stage with what I got. I have to plow in more money for cutters and MT Collet holders and collets, just face milling at the moment to sort out some problems I can eliminate.

Note:If you mishandle the preload(too stiff), or lock the quil, then touch and turn the fine adjust, you are presented with a complete new problem if the quil is unlock...Now it jumps to who kmows where, so once you started milling down in steps, you must not loose track of the backlash in the fine adjust wormwheel.
Play with tis and you see what I mean...Now with the selution you can take it back to where you came from by using the preload.

Note:I did look at my mill heastock adjustment with crank handle and will fit a DRO to the vertical ways, this will be no problem. Actually it does go down easily and smoothly and thats the direction I am milling in any case, its just as it is more cumbersome to use as the fine adjustment, unless I modify it, using a 90 degree small gearbocx and with steering universal joints bring it forward beneath the left side of the bed with a proper handwheel to adjust.(I will probably do this).

27/03/2022 14:09:23

Ok, I keep it short, after two days of looking into the Drill handle-Microfeed setup & Quil Lock I have repeatble success. I end up back at the Quil Lock mechanism and thanks Martin Connelly for your photos, I arrived at a selution with what I had today had on hand.

A-I removed Quil Lock assembly complete, Handle + Rear angle faced part to match the quil facing part inside head. So I found dirt & paint blops o this part. I cleaned this area thoroughly.

B-I then look at the preload idea.

-I added two washers with in between them a water tap rubber washer and two smaller washers on the end. I the cut a washer 3/4 thickness of tap rubber and a hole to house the tap rubber(stiff).

-Assemblyp: Handle.....small washer....Large washer.....-Large thicker washer bored out to house water tap rubber-....Large washer...Small washer(To take up gap between casing & hole to tighten Quil Lock aganst.

-I found an easy spot to point the handle(Repeatable as well-Pints to end of electrical box casing front), preload in action now....., I then dial in the guage to depth, lock quil and needle does not move....I repeatedly did this without mill running, and with mill running the needle do not move when locking all you see is a little vibration from mill running(repeatedly).

So Martin Connelly your idea works, I just did it with different components......At least after all this crap I know the mill better. (In this whole process the fine adjust backlash decreased from 0.7mm to 0.35mm, not sure why).

25/03/2022 07:45:34

Today: I thought more about this now I have a work around established.

A]-If you play with the fine adjust wheel up and down without milling, I reach a pint where I wound up the "spongy backlash" out so it reach a point where as you go on from 0.1mm to 0.2mm to0.3 mm locking unlocking the quil in the process that you can go forwad with out the Red gauge deflecting...This is playing with it. The blue guage just confirm the spindle centre tip stay put at every stop. So removing the blue gauge is ok to go forther with the red guage.
-Now however if you actually mill, you cannot just wind on through the part you milling, you mill in small steps.
Because of this everytime after a milling, when you adjust it down a bit for next mill, that spongy backlash is back all over. This is where I use my workaround as descibed before.

B]-Today: I decided to look at the Handwheel-Wormgear design, the quil + spring + its backlash is one thing, what happens here is another. I completely forgot about this spring.
-THe workwheel assembly in housing is solid no play in this desgn with two bearings.
-I decided to look at this backlash...It feels huge turning the knob, but according to the non adjustable scale on it, it has backlash of 0.7mm......Then I ralise this is roughly the 1st needle deflection I saw when locking the quil, and as I repaet that process described before this get less and less at the red guage while I know the spindle stasy put. So something weird is going on in this arena, my thoughts.

C)-So today I am going to look at the SPRING fitted to the knob on drilling handle you wind down in to enguage the Fine Feed handle and wormwheel. I know the quil with its spring press against the wormgear, I can hear it, it sounds like tacky grease making contact in this assembly.

-I am going to remove the spring.
-I am going to replace the spring with same lenght bushes and shorter bushes to mimick the spring compression if needed.

-I am not sure where this is going to lead, but I think its an area worth exploring.

24/03/2022 17:46:56

My problem is all about locking the quil, to Mill by using the Fine Feed.

Jason B, the blue indicator do not move if I lock the quil, this one is stable, however when actually milling, I of course cannot use this one, its in the way. "The spindle do not see the problem" If I could have tapped measurement the centre of the spindle, I would have had no problem.

So I have to use the red indicator(From Quil)......I find a way around the problem.

It works like this:
To determine when the Red indicator can be trusted, I used both, and both move together, until I lock the quil then the Red one kicks off(My problem, now I am in the dark(Originally).

-So when milling, I chose a setting on red one to aim for.
-I then turn it to that measurement on indicator, ok, but as soon as I lock the Quil it kicks back like 0.5mm.
-I now turn the fine feed again up to the setting aimed for, lock quil, it now kicks back 0.25mm.
-I now repeat this process, it now kicks back only say 0.0125mm when Iock the quil.
-I now repeat the process and turn the fine adjustment to the aimed setting, now it does not kick back anymore when I lock the quil.
-Know I know it will mill to the setting I want and aimed for in a way thats accurate enough for me.

My point is this cannot be right, so much effort.

-I am looking for a selution before I will try to speak to the reseller, I 1st want to get all my ducks in a row understanding exactly what is happenning. At least I got a workaround now.

Edited By Chris Mate on 24/03/2022 17:47:57

24/03/2022 13:16:29

From manual:
z_quil fine feed worm gear.jpg

24/03/2022 11:38:52

Hi, thanks for the comments, got a lot of thinking to do.

1) Regarding the problem I have, I am not sure if the Quil move seperate from the spindle, or if by locking the quil it amplifies a tiny bit wrong not clearly to be seen by my .01 indicators.

2)-A complete another problem, it catch you unexpectedly, also the Fine Adjustment.

Say I pump it in at the target I set, lock the quil finally at target, I then intentionally or accident touch & move the Fine Adjustment over its backlash, The quil just free falls down, now if the machine is running above a part with cutter, this can be a huge problem, so I am luckily aware of this now without crashing it into the workpiece.

---I found if I do anything like slightly stiffening anything, the quil, or the Fine adjustment, I can fall into this trap, I feel I must feel the backlsh freely and clearly, iven if its a lot on the wormwheel.

Note:THe Fine Adjust wormwheel the mating round part of which the worm turns into has dip machined into it, I suppose that is correct, it looks strange-?

Edited By Chris Mate on 24/03/2022 11:39:42

Edited By Chris Mate on 24/03/2022 11:40:19

24/03/2022 10:57:03

Ok, I took a test cut Aliminium bar:

A-I Trusted in Mitutoyo Dial Indicator(Red in drawing) mounted to head, measuring the Quil up/down with the Fine Adjust wormgear.

B-From an in dept experiment between the two guages setup, I determend that if I got them syncroed, then chose a target measure lower it to that, the Red Guage of course not on target with Blue gauge.
-Now if I pump the quil lock lever between lock and unlock, I can step by step advance the Red Guage to the same value as the Blue guage that dont change with the Quil Lock/unlocking.
-So from this I trusted that by using the pumping action I can mill ok.

C-I remove the Blue indicator, and put the aliiminium bar in the vice & tighten/Hammer down, tighten.

D-I am now ready to chose mill a starting surface...I milled that once, back, twice, back, thrice..
-----I mark this setting as zero on Red Idicator(Mitutoyo).
-----I then move the quil up a bit, wind the X- Axis back and measure the starting diameter with Digital Calier.
The result is 39.66mm.

E-I am now ready to chose a cut= -0.066mm off.
-I carefully Lock the Quil-Pump, Unlock-Adjust, Lock-Pump, Unlock-Adjust, Lock-pump, Unlock-no adjust needed target reached.
-I carefully mil it Once, back, twice, back, Thrice, unlock adjust Quil up.

---Move X-axis way back so I can measure(Vice in centre)...

Target=39.594mm (-0.66mm)

Measured=39.57mm...........(The 0.066, the last 6 I guessed.(Indicator-.01mm).

I think I am happy, let me know...My problem is the effort to get to that, this effort seems impractical and wrong to me.

Edited By Chris Mate on 24/03/2022 10:57:45

Edited By Chris Mate on 24/03/2022 10:58:45

Edited By Chris Mate on 24/03/2022 10:59:46

24/03/2022 07:45:29

Here is an illustration: This is about using the Fine Adjustment for quil/spindle.

I can get the "Red" indicator close by repeatedly locking unlocking the quil, but if I unlock it, the Red indicator sags away from locked reading...If I actually mill this is worse.

I am pretty sure one can trust the spindle behaviour when quil is locked and you mill, but that is not where I can mount a DRO pick up of course.


Edited By Chris Mate on 24/03/2022 07:49:48

Edited By Chris Mate on 24/03/2022 07:50:27

24/03/2022 03:17:06

Maybe how I am trying to say something is confusing. I used 2x indicators at the same time.

1-I have proved already with a another Dial Test Indicator in the vice clamed upwards to the spindle pressing on the spindle, that if I Lock-The-Quil, there is zero change in vertical position that I can see at .01mm type of Dial Test Indicator...This reading is constant at zero, does not matter how I move the quil up or down with the Fine-Adjustment. ...So it seems the machine can cut accurate from the machine's spindle centrepoint perspective.

2-However at the same time as I move the quil up or down, my fitted Dial Indicator does not always agree with the Dial-Test-Indicator, this one may or may not show up to .5mm difference. Now this can maybe only due to the quil moving sideways, and this Dial Indicator(Also .01mm) picking that up because its not pointed to the spindle centre.

3-My argument is if I fit a DRO to quil it would be similar to how I fitted the Dial-Indicator and it may be inaccurate, in the sense it can mislead me trusting it------?

Maybe a long time german machinist visit me next week, I will show him exactly what I see(Had discussed it with him on telephone, he did say he never use his quil adjustment), and hear his opinion on this. He has a knee mill.

23/03/2022 21:09:49

This is a ZAY705 ZX-45 Mill DRill setup...

Sorry for confusion, I am trying to illustrate that trying to tap the spindle up/down movement(Z2) is much different than the usual others like: I am trying to understand the differences trying to tap the movement.

Lathe:The spinning part don't slide but spin.(Chuck/Collet etc)

1-The apron movement along the bed(Horizontal) Not spinning.
2-Crosslide movent(Horizontal) Not spinning

Mill:The spinng part(Spindle can slide with help of the Quil)

1-The Quil/Spindle=Z2 Can move Vertical up/down.
-------Spindle spinning. (Slide with Quil)...You cannot tap the spindle itself)
-------Quil Not spinning. (Not spinning but can slide)-Vertically...You can tap the quil, with some consequences other than with the other horizontal types.

2-The Headstock=Z1 axis(Column) Not spinning.
3-The Bed/table X-Axis Slide horizontally.Not spinning.
3-The bed Table Y-Axis Slide horizontally. Not spinning.

I see a big difference trying to tap the movement from a Mill Spindle compared to tapping the movements of those sliding horizontally as well as the Mill/Drill headstock sliding vertically.

Just curious if you see my point(s)..........I never thought about this like this ever before untill recently.

22/03/2022 20:29:50

This is just a friendly question looking for opinions/thoughts around this, after thinking a bit different about the subject: I think I May have identified an accuracy standoff........

-----Ills of accuracy locking the quil on a DRill/Mill.......

With a Lathe the subject spins , the tool stand still. The ways are horizontal.

With a Mill the tool spins, the object stands still compared normally.
With a Mill the X/Y ways are horizontal, while the Z1/Z2 are vertical with some weight involved with Mill/Drills.

DRO: Now if I fit a DRO to ether a Mill or Lathe way which is horizontal or vertical it will probably give an accurate representation of the position it represents and can ignore backlash.

Now when it comes to connect a DRO to represent a mill's spindle height, is impossible seeing the spindle is spinning. The nearest you will get to the spindle is the Quil. Now the further you are mounted from the centre of the spindle the more an ignorable FLT in spindle from centre perspective will be amplified as you go further away with your mount, and this may go up or down measuring with a dial indicator or DRO fitted to quil, which can confuse you.

Now today I went futher with my mill experimentation with dial indicator and and trying to read the spindle movement.

So I fit an extra dial test indicator from below(Vice) measuring at the center of the spindle, not the quil. Now when operating the mill, this is of course not possible to do, because theres going to be a cutter in operation at that position.

--SO I found that if I adjust the fine adjustment handwheel, If I adjust it down say 0.01mm and lock the quil, it everytime stay there, if theres a FLT, I cannot see it with this dial test indicator.
--For the same action, my other dial indicator mounted, I would say at least much more sturdy that any flex/arm type of magnetic dial indicator holder.
Now think about this, while I know know the fine adjustment does not influence the spindle movemet(Just do not mess with it and then unlock the quil, it will move the spindle)....This indicator may or may not stay in the same place if I just unlock/lock the quil....

So I want you to think about this situation....
1-I cannot trust thr fine adjustment indicator by factory, but I can trust as log as I move it foreward only(Cut deeper and deeper), I cannot trust my dial indicator linked up to the quil.
2-So I have a standoff here....

So from all this in concideration, the fact you cannot mount anything to measure to the spindle directly, do you think a DRO representing the spindle centre itself can ever be considred accurate to eliminate the backlash effect, so you can mill the depth you think you are milling without quessing to the end between cutter and part-?

Thread: Mill Quil play before lock down
19/03/2022 21:03:47

A-So this week I made a holder vthat fits slipfit over the quil spring cup.
-I bored it out to fit, then drill and tap 8x 8mm holes evenly spaced, made a gap on the inside to accommodate the end of the spring that protrudes the cup. I bought a knob with 8mm tread on it some time ago from 2nd hand shop, and it fit like a glove for this purpose to adjust the spring not to damage yiour fingers/hand as it gets stiffer.
1-You remove the quil lock handle(Easy, quick).
2-If spring in unwinded, you wind it up till it may slip out of hand and you has to do it all over.
3-Now you fit this tool over and screw the 8mm gear lever handle in one of the treads to have leverage tightning direction. Then you tighten the other 7 bolts. Now the spring cup is gripped and you can upwind it a notch or two.
4-This worked great.

B-I discovered another problem.

THis mill has the spring cup hold in place that it not fall out and unwind by a known + washer that screw in. The problem is when you tighten it, the washer pushes against the cup and that causes the quil to have a spongy feeling(Not the grease) just before it reaches the home position, lets say the 3-5mm. For me this is a problem.

To solve this I inserted a smaller washer below the large washer to prevent the larger washer to push against the cup firmly. Now the quil return firmly back that last 5 mm. If you dont tighten this knob. My drillpress has similar spring cup design, but does not have this problem.

I did read up on other mills, and the various opinions on quil spring tention, neutral even in bridgeport case with tool weight taken into account.

Now with this all fixed, I will try to mill using the dial indicator, then measure it to see if I mill as accurate as I think I am by using the quil lock & fine adjustment in certain order. As soon as the quil is locked, the fine adjustment must not be touched at all. If milling cycle is complete, the quil lock is unlocked, the dial indicator stain same spot, the fine adjustment handwheel is adjusted in correct direction, the dial indicatr indicate next cut depth, you lock the quil, dial indicator do not move, you mill & repeat.....This is now my understanding of how I can use this mill in this way Z2 Axis. (Z1=The head up or down)

Note-1: I will think about the fine adjustment handle holding its position, or at least if you touch it, not mess up your depth by unlocking the quil. I found that putting resistance in quil lock assembly can give you false feeling of backlash, and if quil is unlocked, you will see it drops unexpectedly, which can interfere with your cuting expectations...This is just my opinion now or the time being.

Note-2:I had relook at Drill Press with similar quilspring assembly. The drillpress has 2x locknuts so you can tighten them without screwing the springcup down on shaft and the drillpress has a small play here, unlike the mill had.

Edited By Chris Mate on 19/03/2022 21:22:33

Edited By Chris Mate on 19/03/2022 21:23:34

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