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Member postings for Turbine Guy

Here is a list of all the postings Turbine Guy has made in our forums. Click on a thread name to jump to the thread.

Thread: Model Turbines
03/02/2021 13:39:07

The following drawing shows the advantage of the smaller radius at the tip of the blade when cleanup of the casting is required. When the face of the rotor is machined, a flat is formed at the end of the blades. The more the face is machined, the wider the flat becomes. The drawing dimensions are in millimeters and the blades are shown as if they were running in a straight line. The top set of blades is with the 0.3mm radius I originally planned to use on Drag Rotor 3 as shown in the post of 06/01/2021. The bottom set of blades is what is shown on the drawing of the preceding post. I show the amount being taken off the face in 0.05mm increments as the blades proceed from left to right. The width of the flat on the existing Drag Rotor 2 is 0.38mm so only a little over 0.05mm can be taken off the 0.3 radius without exceeding this. Up to 0.15mm can be taken off the 0.15 radius without exceeding the flat width of the existing blades. The efficiency of the drag turbine is reduced significantly if the flat gets too wide so the minimum amount of cleanup of the face of the rotor should be used.

Blade Ends

02/02/2021 14:02:01

While waiting for my collet set to arrive, I made the following changes to Drag Rotor 3 shown in the drawing below. I cleaned up my method of forming the blades to utilize the options I have with castings. Instead of modifying the solid model made for machining the rotor with a keyway cutter, I designed the blades from the start for casting. I also changed the end of the blades from 0.3mm radius to a 0.18mm radius with a 1mm radius lead in edge. As you can see from the drawing, the 0.6mm thickness must be used for most of the length of the blade. Shapeways allows a minimum thickness of 0.35mm providing the length is no longer than 0.35mm. I was also able to reduce the maximum blade depth H’ to its optimum value. This allowed me to increase the number of blades. These changes should help if I decide to try another rotor.

Drag Rotor 3 R1

22/01/2021 19:39:15

After reading about the accuracy of drill chucks I decided to see if I could get a collet holder (chuck) for my Unimat 3. I couldn't find any source in the USA so I made the following thread Unimat 3 Collets. Several people helped me in my decision of what to purchase and I ordered a set of collets that included a collet holder from ebay UK. Anyone with a Unimat 3 and thinking about getting collets may find this thread useful. Since this set is coming from the UK, it will be a few weeks before I can start the machining on the Drag Turbine 3 Housing and Cover. To get the maximum performance with the Drag Turbine, the clearances must be made as small as possible. I thought using collets could help with the reaming of the bearing bores and with centering the cast parts in the 4 jaw chuck.

Thread: Unimat 3 collet holder
21/01/2021 23:17:48
Posted by Jouke van der Veen on 21/01/2021 20:33:49:

Emco C5 spare parts etc. can also be bought at Emco Holz & Hobby in Austria.

Thanks for the source. They appear to sell the collet holder I thought would be ideal for me as shown in Holz & Hobby This source could be useful for other EMCO parts.

21/01/2021 20:00:16

After looking at the cost of buying the collets individually, I realize what a bargain the ER-25 collet chuck with the set of collets sold on ebay is. I went ahead and ordered the set mentioned by br.

Thank you all for your help,

Byron

21/01/2021 19:23:41

Hi Emgee,

The collet chuck you showed the picture of (EMCO 200 050) would be perfect for my needs. If anyone knows where I could obtain one of these (new or used) I would appreciate it. As br mentioned in a preceding post, the ER-25 collet chuck is available as a complete set with collets on ebay.  I would prefer to get just the chuck if possible.

Thanks for the help,

Byron

Edited By Turbine Guy on 21/01/2021 19:24:57

21/01/2021 17:50:46
Posted by Emgee on 21/01/2021 17:42:19:

Emco did/do an ER25 chuck that screws direct to the spindle on the Emco 5 milling drilling accessory fitted to some 5 cnc lathes and 5 manual lathes.
Original EMCO, item no. 200 050, Fixing M14x1

You don't say if the thread you need is M14x1 or M14x1.5 ?

Emgee

emco er25 fixing tapped 14x1mm.jpg

The Unimat 3 uses M14x1 thread.

21/01/2021 17:17:34

I just checked my source for collets and found out I would need the ER-25 collets to get up to the maximum size I would like to use. This would be my preferred size.

21/01/2021 17:09:39
Posted by br on 21/01/2021 15:44:10:

My unimat collet chuck is Emco ref no 150 290

!4mm thread

Collets are type E16

br

Your set would be perfect for my Unimat 3. I was hoping to get original EMCO items since all my lathe and drill attachment accessories were made my EMCO. I live in the USA and if you are willing to ship them to me please PM me with the price you would like to sell them for.

Look forward to hearing from you,

Byron

21/01/2021 17:01:49
Posted by Emgee on 21/01/2021 15:35:03:

Byron, chuck for what type and size of collet ?

Emgee

I can get collets in size ER-16, ER-20, or ER-25. The largest collet I would probably need is 5/8" (16mm).

21/01/2021 15:27:07

I'm trying to find a place to purchase a collet holder (chuck) for a Unimat 3. I have found a few sources for complete sets of collets with a holder. I have not been able to find a source that sells the collet holder only.

I appreciate any help,

Byron

Thread: Model Turbines
20/01/2021 16:24:00

This is the drawing mentioned in the previous post. The upper dimension is the size that would be obtained by a uniform 2% shrinkage. The lower dimension in parenthesis is the actual measured dimension. Each actual measured dimension was taken in several places and the average was used. This should give a reasonable indication of what to expect assuming 2% shrinkage with these types and sizes of bronze castings. As can be seen in the drawing the actual shrinkage varies. The worst deviation was on the wide thin portion, the OD of the housing and cover flanges. These dimensions were from 0.009” to 0.011” larger than they would be with a perfect mold and uniform 2% shrinkage. All the other measured dimensions were within +/- 0.003”, which is excellent in my opinion.

Cast Dimensions

20/01/2021 15:15:22

The castings for the Drag Turbine 3 Housing and Cover arrived and are shown in the following photos. They came in jewelry bags like the rotor casting. Before setting these up for machining, I made a few measurements to check the shrinkage. The drawing showing these dimensions will added in the next post. Overall, the castings looked very good, and when the cover is placed on the housing all the holes and edges line up nicely. I opted for a natural finish, so the cleanup might have polished some of the surfaces.

Housing & Cover CastingsHousing & Cover Castings 2

17/01/2021 20:55:42

I finished Drag Rotor 2 as shown in the following photo. Machining the rotor would have been very easy if I had done all the machining with the cast rotor not taken out of the chuck until all the critical machining was finished. Holding the cast rotor by the round part that extended from the back face of the rotor allowed enough room to machine both faces and the OD to their final dimension after reaming the bore. Because I got what I thought would be a strong enough press fit, I decided to cut off the excess length of the extension and then press fit the rotor to the shaft for the final machining. My hacksaw slipped while cutting off the extension and I ended up with not enough length of the hub to run a pin through. I had to rely on the press fit of the rotor without most of the hub. This gave enough strength to machine the front and back face of the rotor but the wave in the OD caused enough force to break the press fit. The holes added were for pins I used to go through the rotor and into a clamping collar that gave me enough grip to turn the OD. I then used part of the cut off extension that had the reamed hole to make a collar the right length to get the hub back to it’s intended length. I ended up with rotor and shaft machined to the dimensions I needed but could have saved myself a lot of work. The cast housing and end plate have been shipped from Shapeways and will arrive soon. Hopefully, I will do a better job with them.

Drag Rotor 2-2

Edited By Turbine Guy on 17/01/2021 21:14:29

12/01/2021 16:18:51

In the post of 10/01/2021 I discussed how the shrinkage on the casting for Drag Rotor 2 did not seem to match Shapeways average of 2.5% for bonze. After discussing this with a Shapeways customer service representative, I found that the shrinkage is not an exact amount. It varies with the size and shape of the casting and can be different for some locations in the casting. For my size and type of casting he suggested 2% shrinkage would be a better estimate. This is about what the shrinkage was on the OD, the longest dimension of this casting. If the shrinkage is critical in your design it might be a good ideal to discuss this with a Shapeways customer service representative.

11/01/2021 19:00:13

Hi Roger and Werner,

If the drag turbine works well enough to demonstrate the efficiency estimated by Dr. Balje can be approached with my tiny model, that would indicate that an efficiency in the range of 15% to 20% could be obtained with 90 degree blades. The best efficiency I have been able to obtain from my tangential and axial impulse turbines using my airbrush compressor and smallest propeller is approximately 14% as shown in the table below. If an efficiency of over 15% can be obtained with 90 degree blades, it would be higher than I have been able to obtain up to date and have full power in both directions. This would be quite a bit less than the 28% efficiency I hope to get with the 40 degree blades but would still be a major improvement and I think worth testing.

Thanks for the feedback,

Byron

Turbine Test Results 11

10/01/2021 17:32:59

My casting for Drag Rotor 2 arrived and looks very good. The following photo shows it sitting on the bag it was shipped in. Putting it in a jewelry bag was a nice touch. The measurement around the OD and across the face of the rotor varied by approximately +/- 0.002" (0.05mm). The actual OD after casting averaged approximately 1.026”. This OD on the 3D model used to make the casting, shown on the drawing in the post of 22/12/2020, is 1.04”. From Shapeways Bronze Guidelines the average shrinkage is given as 2.5%. For a after casting OD of 1.026” and a shrinkage of 2.5%, the mold ID would be approximately 1.05” before casting. This is approximately 0.01” larger than the 3D model, so the accuracy of the mold should also be considered. The machining allowance I assumed for Drag Rotor 2 was for the casting to be +/- 0.020" and is probably about right for this size of casting.

Drag Rotor 2-1

06/01/2021 15:15:09

Hi Werner,

If the Spencer blowers use 90 degree blades they would be truly bidirectional. You are right that using the 40 degree blades makes the turbine almost unidirectional. My design would have some torque running in the opposite directions if the flow in the ports is reversed. You bring up a very interesting point about running in both directions, I have not looked at that. Using the 90 degree blades would make the drag turbine truly reversible but quite a bit less efficient. The maximum efficiencies found for the tests of 90 degree blades and 40 degree blades in 'A STUDY OF HIGH ENERGY LEVEL, LOW POWER OUTPUT TURBINES' by Dr. Balje are 20% and 33% respectively. These were from actual tests so should give an indication of the difference in efficiency. We have both seen that things don't always work out the same for miniature steam models so there might not be this much difference. I may try a rotor with 90 degree blades and see how it does.

Thanks for bringing this up,

Byron

Edited By Turbine Guy on 06/01/2021 15:30:55

06/01/2021 13:26:13

This is the drawing for Drag Rotor 3. I had to make the pockets deeper and reduce the number of blades to open up the flow area with the extra blade thickness.  

Drag Rotor 3

Edited By Turbine Guy on 06/01/2021 14:01:08

06/01/2021 13:24:22

I designed Drag Rotor 3 following all the guidelines from Shapeways. The two guidelines I missed on Drag Rotor 2 were keeping the minimum thickness greater than 0.6mm minimum for bronze and having a sharp edge on a thin section. The blades on Drag Rotor 3 are 0.6mm thick and have a round end. The following picture shows a 3D view of the blades. The drawing for this rotor will be shown in the next post. I should point out that Shapeways minimum thickness is not the same for all materials so should be checked. I may try this rotor if I have a problem with Drag Rotor 2 since it will work with the cast housing and cast cover plate of Drag Turbine 3.Drag Rotor 3 Blades

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