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Member postings for Ron Laden

Here is a list of all the postings Ron Laden has made in our forums. Click on a thread name to jump to the thread.

Thread: 5 inch 0-4-0 Shunter
20/05/2019 19:13:11
Posted by Ron Laden on 17/05/2019 07:58:24:

An artist I am not, so I hope my attempt at a Thomas type face will get the girls approval. Sunday will be our two great grand daughters first outing with the loco and to turn up at the track with a faceless engine would not go down well...lol

I had to quickly come up with something so made up a removable card cover that fits over the radiator grill. I did most of it with a compass including the s/adh vinyl cut with a compass cutter.

Anyway the best I could do but the girls wont be slow in telling me.

dsc06693.jpg

Well a good time was had by all, yesterday was the first track day for the girls plus our 9 year old grandson came along as well. The three of them really did enjoy themselves and to be honest more than I expected. Fitting runs in between other track users we had about one and a half hours track time which was good.

They all had some driving time with me as the brake man and considering the girls are just 6 & 7 they did really well. The grandson took to it like a duck to water, a couple of circuits and he had it sorted, using a combination of throttle and brake he had just about the ideal speed for all parts of the track. The girls thought the Thomas face was "cool" so I was on a winner there but grandson thought the loco looked better without the face.

I suppose I had better mention it, but I got a yellow card plus a polite ticking off as I was spotted driving through a red track light....oops. I wasnt the only one though, two of the steamer guys had done the same, one of them has over 20 years experience so he came in for quite a bit of stick.

The weather was good and the wife had packed a nice picnic which topped off the day....very nice.

Thread: Electrics for a battery locomotive
19/05/2019 22:02:17
Posted by Tim Ellis on 19/05/2019 21:04:05:

Many thanks Dave, Emgee and John.

The motors do not have any information on them, I've looked at every part of the body but nothing. The chassis I am using is the remains of a sadcastings dock shunter which uses two of these

**LINK**

I can only assume these are the same type as I have.

very best,

Tim

Edited By Tim Ellis on 19/05/2019 21:05:07

Tim, those motors are listed as 12/24 volt 120 watt 3000rpm but it doesnt say if the 3000rpm is from 12 volt or 24. I dont know if you have a means of measuring the RPM but its needed to get the gearing something like correct, unless of course the gearing is already sorted on the chassis you have.

Ron

Thread: 5 inch 0-4-0 Shunter
19/05/2019 21:42:51
Posted by Tim Ellis on 19/05/2019 16:08:26:

Fantastic work.

I am also building a 5 inch gauge locomotive. Can I ask, I have sued the same controller, have you fitted a fuse box and circuit breaker? and if so which ones have you used?

Many thanks in advance.

Tim

Hi Tim,

I only have an in-line 30 amp fuse, I havnt gone with a circuit breaker. My controller (TE535) is 40 amp sustained and 60 amp max plus the most I have seen the loco draw to date is 23 amps so I went with 30 amps. A circuit breaker is probably a good idea.

Ron

Thread: Class 22 Diesel (next project)
18/05/2019 11:17:13

I have gone with a pair of mobility scooter batteries 12 volt - 22 amp hour in the little 0-4-0 shunter, the 4 motors are wired parallel as are the batteries giving 12 volt - 44 amp hours, its early days so will have to see how they cope over time. Cost wise they compared favourably with a 50 amp hour leisure battery which I was going to use, £65 for the leisure and £63 for the pair of scooter batteries.

I am thinking of going with the same for the large loco but 4 batteries, each pair wired series for 24 volt and then the two pairs in parallel to double the capacity though I may go up to 30 amp hour doubled to 60, the 4 motors will be wired parallel also.

I dont yet have any long term experience with the batteries but we have a club member who runs an electric with a pair of the mobility scooter batteries and he said the batteries are coming up 4 years old and still going strong. I have noticed though its quite light duty, he probably does no more than three or four 10 minute runs each track visit.

18/05/2019 08:51:56
Posted by duncan webster on 17/05/2019 20:58:11:
Posted by duncan webster on 17/05/2019 18:01:03:

400 Watts from a loco doing 8 mph (3.7 m/sec) is a tractive effort of 108 kgf. The best coefficient of adhesion you can rely on is about 3 (less on ally rail) so best make your loco weigh at least 325 kg, which is a hell of a lot. 108 kgf is enough to pull a train weighing over 5 tonnes up a 1 in 100 slope even allowing for rolling resistance.
I'd just settle for less power, say 200 watts. Even the Lionel Flippance machine in Dave's link only managed 300 watts average.

OOPS, sums wrong! Having a bad day, or at least that's my excuse

tractive effort is 108 Newtons, not kgf, so the weight only needs to be 33 kg, which is much more manageable. Max load up a 1 in 100 will then be 550 kg, about 7 people plus the loco

Edited By duncan webster on 17/05/2019 21:02:47

Edited By duncan webster on 17/05/2019 21:31:45

Well thats a relief Duncan but I did suspect something not quite right, if I had a 5 inch - 400 watt loco capable of hauling 5 tonnes up a 1 in 100 I think I would have built the most powerful model the world had ever seen...wink

17/05/2019 16:46:12
Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 15/05/2019 17:07:42:
Posted by Ron Laden on 15/05/2019 14:01:10:

Thanks Dave,

I did base my decision to go with these motors on the fact that the labelled 150 watts is probably input with something like 100 watt output and I would be happy with 400 watts total. Dont ask me why but bench running the motors has led me to think that they may be a bit more than that though. It may be wishful thinking but I suspect I could have a total of 500 watts plus, the running of the loco will of course prove that or otherwise.

Ron

Yes Ron you will, but you can't tell how much without making the motor do real work. Watts are a measure of the rate of doing work, so you have to make the motor do something serious to measure them.

All electric motors can deliver far more power output than it says on the label - for a while! Your motors aren't somehow limited to 100W maximum, the label only suggests that's the rate at which they can work comfortably. An electric motor can be pushed beyond its rating, but if it can't get rid of excess heat, the internal temperature will rise until the brushes burn or the insulation fails and shorts the motor out. If you run a heavily loaded 100W motor wired for 12V from a big 24V battery with thick wires, you should get at least 300W out.

Overloading motors is not recommended because it shortens their lives. As a general rule for a given weight the working life of a motor is inversely proportional to its power output.

I think your shunter has plenty of power in hand even if your motors can't maintain 100W continuous without overheating. Found the IMLEC results for 2010 here. The smallest engine measured had an average power output of 0.1 Drawbar HP (74W) and the largest 0.39 DBHP (291W). Most 5" gauge steam engines look to output less than 200 Watts.

And unlike electric motors which can be overloaded on demand, the power output of a steam engine is inherently throttled. Steam engines are held back by the rate at which steam can get into the cylinders and by the engine's ability to withstand violently reciprocating mechanical stresses.

Given decent batteries, I expect your shunter will perform like a sports car...

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 15/05/2019 17:08:56

Dave,

Assuming I am understanding the IMLEC 2010 results in your above link correctly I am amazed at the figures.

In first place a Brittania (4-6-2) which hauled 16 adults for 1/2 an hour using just 1.25 lbs of coal, surely that is high end efficiency. Also it is listed as having 0.35 drawbar HP (260 watts), I always thought of the larger model steam loco,s as having much more power than that.

Ron

Edited By Ron Laden on 17/05/2019 16:47:11

Edited By Ron Laden on 17/05/2019 16:49:21

Edited By Ron Laden on 17/05/2019 16:56:46

Thread: Drilling cast iron - where did I go wrong?
17/05/2019 12:53:35

I know it would be considered wrong but I have always used standard drills for cap head counterbores and not a counterbore bit. Yes I know that the head is then sitting against an angled seat and not a flat/square one but I have never had any issues with loose or weak fixings. When the main aim is to fasten parts together whilst losing the head below the surface it works fine. Now if it was a heavy duty assembly I would probably think differently plus I have used an endmill when I have one that suits the size.

Edited By Ron Laden on 17/05/2019 12:58:22

Thread: aching ribs - posture
17/05/2019 09:57:57

I am 6ft and my bench tops are at 41 inches, benches at kitchen worktop height which is 4-5 inches less are too low for me.

Ron

Thread: 5 inch 0-4-0 Shunter
17/05/2019 07:58:24

An artist I am not, so I hope my attempt at a Thomas type face will get the girls approval. Sunday will be our two great grand daughters first outing with the loco and to turn up at the track with a faceless engine would not go down well...lol

I had to quickly come up with something so made up a removable card cover that fits over the radiator grill. I did most of it with a compass including the s/adh vinyl cut with a compass cutter.

Anyway the best I could do but the girls wont be slow in telling me.

dsc06693.jpg

Thread: Class 22 Diesel (next project)
15/05/2019 14:01:10

Thanks Dave,

I did base my decision to go with these motors on the fact that the labelled 150 watts is probably input with something like 100 watt output and I would be happy with 400 watts total. Dont ask me why but bench running the motors has led me to think that they may be a bit more than that though. It may be wishful thinking but I suspect I could have a total of 500 watts plus, the running of the loco will of course prove that or otherwise.

Ron

Thread: What Did You Do Today 2019
15/05/2019 13:31:28
Posted by Andrew Johnston on 10/05/2019 14:52:23:

Over the recent Bank holiday weekend I assembled enough of one engine to have it sitting on it's own wheels:

engine.jpg

After I'd recovered my jaw from where it hit the floor my reaction was bleep bleep that's seriously BIG! Where on earth am I going to put the second engine? It's just as well I moved the parts out of the kitchen, the assembled engine won't go through the door. Fortunately I got the specification for the front door correct when it was replaced a few years back, there's an inch or two of clearance.

Andrew

Thats impressive Andrew and quite a sizeable beast, from starting how long has it taken you to get to this stage.

Ron

Thread: Ever have one of those days..?
15/05/2019 09:37:32

Its not 10.00am yet and my morning has not gone well.

My 30 year old Digimatic vernier has started to lose its display, I,ve cleaned the contacts and fitted a new battery but its still playing up, I hope its not on the way out, I,m quite attached to it..

I then dropped my dial gauge onto the concrete floor which has not done it any good at all its now sticking, knackered I guess.

Then to top it all I have cut a slither off the end of my finger with a Stanley knife..

I dont think its a day for the workshop...sad

Thread: Class 22 Diesel (next project)
15/05/2019 08:47:10

The motors I have decided on have arrived, they are Chinese and available from UK electric scooter suppliers. It was a no brainer really, a set of 4 motors for quite a bit less than the cost of a single UK manufactured motor of equivalent spec. They are listed as 24 volt, 150 watt, 6.25 amp with a no load speed of 2750 rpm and come fitted with a 3mm - 16T belt pulley. They have twin ball races and having taken one apart look to be well made.

There is a question mark over the quoted figures though and I had a "technical conversation" with the supplier. He said: great motor, loads of power. Me: is the 150 watts input or output..? Him: silence, then "input" Me: it would have been better if the 150 watts was output. Him, silence again then, erm, no it must be output, loads of power......LOL

Anyway I read all the user reviews I could find and they all said the motor gives good power and is reliable. One guy thought the 150 watts was about right, based on what though I dont know. Another said probably a bit lower at 100-125. One guy uses one to power a watch makers lathe and he thought at least 150 watts but without proper testing who knows..?

Not knowing the actual figures leads to a bit of guesstimation and gut feeling when making calculations, gear ratio,s for instance. The quoted no load speed is 2750 but the motors I have are within 150 rpm of each other (which is good) averaging out at 4050 rpm.

Now 4050 rpm is quite a bit faster than 2750 so I have estimated a loaded speed and geared at 4.25/1 to achieve a loco speed of 6mph. Will have to see how it comes out in the wash but should I need to change the ratio I can easily change the motor pulley size up or down, hopefully I wont need to.

I was also thinking that one of these motors could be a good candidate for building a power drive for the mill table, doubt I will ever get around to it though.

Ron

dsc06691.jpg

 

Edited By Ron Laden on 15/05/2019 08:50:37

Thread: 5 inch 0-4-0 Shunter
14/05/2019 10:07:44

Made up a simple throttle lever, looks a bit more in keeping than a plastic knob.

dsc06688.jpg

Thread: Class 22 Diesel (next project)
09/05/2019 14:05:55

Hi Duncan

It is probably not clear from my sketch but the motors on this version of the bogie are not axle mounted they are fixed to the side plate. I am hoping that the belt tension will be ok, my maths and geometry is not up to it so I resorted to using a pair of dividers to check the upper and lower belt length against the axle travel. As far as I could see the dimensions cancelled each other out but I could be wrong of course. Should any of you clever chaps want to check, the motor pulley is 14.6mm dia and the axle pulley 68.75mm dia. The pulley centres are 73.0mm and the vertical travel of the axle is 6.0mm max. As per the sketch the axle is at its lowest point sitting on the horizontal centre line with the 6.0mm of travel being upwards.

Ron

09/05/2019 09:32:13

Excuse my rough sketch but it shows another option for the loco bogies which would have sprung axle boxes and toothed belt drive against the gear driven trailing arm type bogie I posted previously.

I think this is a neater option housing the motors within the axles and the overall bogie length is 100mm shorter than the trailing arm type. Also the sprung axle boxes are more in keeping with railway practice plus the track to chassis top plate dimension is 100mm so it wouldnt look too leggy. Still not 100% decided on which bogie type to go with but it probably will be as below.

dsc06684.jpg

Thread: fly cutter or face mill
09/05/2019 08:45:58

In my limited experience I am a big fan of the flycutter, as Jason mentioned I made my own which was very easy to do. I got a HSS bit from ARC which made life easy as all the angles are there so its easy to maintain them when grinding a new edge. I like the finish the flycutter gives and depending on size it can be done in one pass, I have found that running a little faster than what the figures give seems to work well or at least thats what I,ve found.

The one I made:

dsc06315.jpg

Thread: Electric Traction Engine
06/05/2019 20:25:35

I have been busy with other things but managed to finish the first axle bearing this afternoon, well apart from the 4 fixing holes and a clean up. I didnt go with a full tear drop shape in the end but did add some angle which improved the look I think. Just need to get some time now on the rest of the bearing set

dsc06677.jpg

Thread: 5 inch 0-4-0 Shunter
26/04/2019 12:56:27
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 24/04/2019 17:36:54:

Well done Ron.

For some reason your video made me think "Gerry Anderson!"

Neil

You mean a bit like Thunderbirds..? ....lol

Thread: Fillers & Paint ?
26/04/2019 08:00:14

Plus 1 for filler primer, as Jason says it does lose a lot of small imperfections and leaves just the larger dents and scratches, I,ve used it for years and its the first thing I apply before reaching for the filler.

Ron

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