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Member postings for Russ B

Here is a list of all the postings Russ B has made in our forums. Click on a thread name to jump to the thread.

Thread: Column Alignment with Tilting Head Type Mills
22/03/2014 19:15:25
Posted by Dusty on 21/03/2014 19:03:17:

Russ

Your method of using a square is fine but if you can use a large angle plate (of known accuracy) instead it will be even better. Whilst at it check the other plane, as if it is out in one direction chances are it may be out in the other direction. I would forget the loctite for two reasons the first being if you should need to part it in future it could be a bit of a so and so. The second reason is that it is likely that the casting has been contaminated by oil and you will not be able to secure a bond, no matter how well you clean it. My method of corecting the fault would be by shimming, that is unless you are very conffident about your ability with a file.

I'm pretty handy with a file so that would be my chosen route I'm not a fan of shimming for anything other than a temporary fix unless the shims are pretty substantial, regarding an angle plate or square I'll probably go with that but I'd prefer a measurable method (which is why I thought up the test bar in the spindle method)

I will go with Ed's engineers square bolted to the table method, just to get me going, and it will be interesting to compare result with a lathe test bar and jig at a later date

21/03/2014 09:57:12
Posted by Michael Gilligan on 21/03/2014 09:38:35:

No offence intended, Russ ... and thanks for the link to the beast in question.

However; if I understood your original post correctly; the column on your machine is not accurately perpendicular to the table ... It is evidently not a "tilting column" so it's an assembly error.

The good news is that once you've got it set right you won't be moving it.

MichaelG.

cheeky no offence taken at all - its just my oddball sense of humour!

The column does not tilt to that degree, sorry for the misleading description, it is bolted straight to the back of the base without any locating pins etc, so the user can adjust the alignment - I will use Ed's method to get me going, and if I see a 2 Morse test bar come up cheap I'll grab one and test my theory while hopefully checking how well Ed's method aligned the column and table - I will use Loctite between the column and base to give me less chance of it slipping.

Nicholas, yes that's the one, although the photo on Chester's website I believe is the old design control box layout (they called it the 20VS I think) the 20V they sell will probably have a larger spindle speed readout as shown on Weiss' website - it is purely cosmetic though, the machine is the same and the controller should be the same KBIC unit + it will have the long 700mm table, not the 500 shown on the Weiss site

21/03/2014 09:08:51
Posted by Michael Gilligan on 21/03/2014 08:29:29:

Russ,

I've not found any useful views of the WMD20V, but am I right in assuming that the column assembly is similar to the "old X2" ? ... as illustrated on page 3 of this.

MichaelG.

Eughh! no no no cheeky - those tilting columns are a sin IMO, and I'd go as far as saying a discredit to Sieg's engineering ability - 1st hand experience sadly. The number of large components and castings required to achieve that is more than it would have taken to incorporate a swivel mechanism between items 49 and 63 on the link you send (spindle box, and spindle box base - or vertical saddle as I would call it)

The head rotates about an axis on a vertical saddle see page 45 here **LINK**

It's a much more substantial machine than the X2, its more of a match for the X3 - its a little lighter and little cheaper, but equally capable vs the X3 and many say more rigid and reliable - and better finished (hand scraped on all mating faces) which I can't comment on having never seen an X3 in the flesh.

21/03/2014 07:52:06
Posted by Ed Duffner on 21/03/2014 01:58:44:

Hi Russ,

I'm not sure what the configuration of the head to the column is on the WMDV20. I have a Warco WM16 which has a rotating head as opposed to a fixed head on a column that rotates at its base like some other makes/models.

What I did when I set my machine up was to clamp an engineers square vertically to the milling table and hold a DTI in the spindle. The DTI runs up/down the vertical edge of the square when raising/lowering the head. This tells me if the column is perpendicular to the table or not (assuming I have a perfectly square engineer's square).

After adjusting out any tilt in the column I then concentrated on tramming the head and spindle assembly to ensure that the spindle is also perpendicular to the table.

Hope this helps, I must admit I'm fairly new to machining.

Regards,
Ed.

Ed - I see thanks, yes that should achieve a fairly good level of column to table alignment without the need for special tools - albeit relying on the accuracy of the square and table -

this is basically the same method different exicution (relying on no special tools/test bars), so (to aid people are maybe struggling to visulise this)

> rather than running a dti up and down the column using a custom jig, while reading alignment on a test bar in the spindle - thus aligning the spindle to column ways - then tramming the spindle to table which should result in a square column less any misalignment of spindle to column.

> your running a dti up and down the column held by the vertical saddle (either in the spindle, or magnetic base to the saddle perhaps?) and running up and down an engineers square clamped to the table - thus aligning the column to table, then aligning the spindle to table which should result in the column and spindle now being aligned less any misalignment in the column to table.

Is everyone on board cheeky

MichealG - I think maybe this is what you where aiming at possibly - sorry for confusing things.

I think we've highlighted that 2 wrongs DO appear to make a right if your just tramming the spindle to table, so the quick set square bolted to the table method should really be used for the 1st assembly and at suitable intervals thereafter - I'm not sure if my wacky method would be any more accurate - I might have to put it to the test!

Thanks for the input - this problem is certainly more than halved!

20/03/2014 23:41:21
Posted by Michael Gilligan on 20/03/2014 23:16:48:

Russ,

What you describe seems to be a viable alternative to the usual "tramming" with a DTI ... but I'm not sure if it offers any improvement.

The important thing that you have highlighted is that "two wrongs CAN make a right" ... within a limited set of circumstances.

The previous owner had evidently made two angular errors, which cancelled-out: The interesting bit, I think, is that in that condition movement of the Quill remains correct because [being subject to the sum of the two angles] it is running vertically, albeit laterally displaced from its "design position" ... but, movement of the Head on the not-quite-vertical column will disclose the angular error [because it is only subject to the effect of one angle] by producing a lateral shift.

The process you describe should work, but you could probably achieve the same result by tramming; provided that you check at more than one position of the [Mill] Head.

MichaelG.

crook Thanks for the reply, I'll need a while to digest and ponder on that, I'm still not sure how tramming with more than one position of the head will do it - could you expand a little more cheeky

(unless your talking about accurate x,y coordination and comparison of a projected point from the spindle axis to the table - opening a whole new can of "how to" worms - especially without a dro?)

My problem is, I'm dreaming up these methods of metrology with experience from a different line of engineering which I'm more familiar (but less natural) with (Civil Eng and surveying), I'm not sure how applicable my theories are here but it sure is fun.

20/03/2014 11:50:41

I have a question and a theory regarding the column alignment on tilting head milling machines - I'm referring to a WMD20V but I suppose any mill with a rotating head and fixed/adjustable column.

Preface; The chap I picked the mill up from mentioned that he had issues with losing x,y coordination as he raised the head of the machine (it would drift off in one direction). This was caused because he had (mis)aligned the spindle to the saddle using the printed scale (the source of all the problems) and then using a DTI gauge in the spindle aligned the column & head to the table.

So the spindle remained perpendicular to the table, but the column was tilted so it would move left and right as he raised/lowered it.

I seek a better solution and have read a few methods that rely on the machining accuracy of the parts, digital angle gauges, feeler gauges between the column and base etc. - which may work, but I thought a better method must exist - so I wondered how other people may approach this and could you review my theory below?

My theory is that I could mount a suitable test bar (£35 delivered) in the spindle and using a simple jig I can slide my DTI gauge parallel to the dovetail. I could measure the stationary spindle to column alignment and set that (maybe rotate the spindle 180° to 1/2 some of bearing/test bar alignment error if any.... ?), and then using the DTI in the spindle as per the norm - align the column to the table and Bobs your uncle ?

What do you think?

Edited By Russ B on 20/03/2014 12:04:52

Thread: Rollo Elf
19/03/2014 09:40:27

Sounds really good Ryan, good luck with it! If you need any parts measuring up for the screw cutting facility let me know - I think I've got just about all the gears and shafts etc.

Regarding the spindle taper, I roughly measured it...... with pin gauges...... aka drill bits reversed......

It appears to be MT0 and I'm confident enough to buy one to blue & try, so I'll let you know. The only thing I'm unsure of - is that the mouth of the taper is not 9.045 which it should be for MT0 but having thought about this I guess with the faceplate installed the centre would be hidden with it being so small, thus it may would want to sit proud so maybe this is correct, I'll let you know

Thread: Acme Die
17/03/2014 22:05:42
Posted by Bazyle on 16/03/2014 16:02:12:

A leadscrew will normally ony wear on one side - threading towards the chuck. If you are making custom just get a used one and use it the other way round. Even if you do end up wanting to do a bit of thread work going away from the chuck you will be on the back end of the original configuration so less worn. Once you have this set up you can always then make a new one on the lathe you have built.

I like your thinking, I'm sure it doesn't appeal to the purest/perfectionist but a nice little trick

Thread: Download Motor Boys Model Engine Plan Book
12/03/2014 13:58:42

I'm looking to get hold of a copy of the "Motor Boys Model Engine Plan Book" does anyone know of a download link?

I don't mind paying for it but as it's released under creative commons, selling it above cost is not legal - sharing it is legal, see here for more.......:**LINK**

If anyone could share .pdf file with me I would be greatly appreciative I don't mind sending or paying for a SAE + blank CD etc , or just downloading it through a free private link (say Dropbox?)

Here is a link to the original page, **LINK**

Many thanks,

Russ

Thread: workshop insurance
10/03/2014 14:24:55

Interesting subject. I insured my contents which covered a certain amount of garage/shed contents. I assume it doesn't cover "industrial" machinery but I can't see anyone walking off with a Bridgeport on their shoulder.

I keep a rough photo diary, just a walk around the garage photographing draws and shelves focusing on things of value etc.

Ultimately, I wouldn't be surprised if they refused to payout and had to be pushed legally. The benefit of some of my more portable machines is they are clearly defined as hobby use only or "not for industrial use" which should help some out.

If I wanted bespoke insurance for anything I'd have a trip to the nearest NFU office for a chat with them, they're very reasonably priced.

Thread: Rollo Elf
10/03/2014 09:09:51

I'll quickly correct myself for the benefit of others who may dig this up in the future.

The tailstock is MT1, I went to put the centre in the nose.... no chance, it's tiny - whoops!

Sorry for the bad advice Malcolm!

I'll try to gauge exactly what it might be the next time I have a need for it - One sold on ebay for £125 odd recently with a cracked bearing housing and what looks like a complete box of original accessories - I might try and get in touch with the winner and see if they can help out

- maybe they can sell me a faceplate too, if they're breaking it, as mines gone AWOL......

cheeky

Edited By Russ B on 10/03/2014 09:13:01

Thread: First simple project
06/03/2014 20:31:13

Jason,

I think you've changed my mind on my 1st project, that does actually look equally simple to the bollaero and certainly a much sturdier lump.

The main bearing of the BollAero did force me to raise an eyebrow, but I trust the authors judgement to use aluminium bar - did he do this for simplicity for the beginner or am I missing something

Do you think I could I make mine out of phosphor bronze, or oversize the housing and insert a PB1 bush?

Many thanks again,

06/03/2014 09:52:02

Jason,

I've had a glance though and that is an extremely impress piece of kit - beautifully finished, - I'd like to do both now....... probably make a few mistakes on the Boll before I attack that FireFly - one slip on the bottom end looks like a whole lot of work and setups wasted - and I'm 100% certain the Boll components won't turn out right first time.

I'll read your build log in full ASAP and soak it all up, it looks like a great example of what I'll need to get the job done right - thanks for that (the only negative been you've set the finished quality bar quite high there lol)

Thread: Drawing Projections
06/03/2014 00:26:28
Posted by Wolfie on 20/09/2012 12:34:04:

 

I have to say that I would have thought it was blindingly obvious to put the left hand side projection on the left, and the right hand side on the right, the top at the top and so on. Who would do it any other way???

 

3rd angle is only used America and Australia, the rest of the world uses 1st angle ortho - so not really that obvious, and not "as previously used in the UK" either - it really depends on your way of thinking.

The easiest way to understand the difference is by imagining that your "object" never leaves the page, - now this is a fairly lose analagy from my brain - for a proper insight, as I think previously linked see here - but you might get bored quick, even though the page contains less words than this post....... http://www3.ul.ie/~rynnet/orthographic_projection_fyp/webpages/third_angle.html

1st angle, the object sits ON TOP of the page, and so rolling to the left, displays the right side of the object (assuming its a cube or simple shape)

3rd angle, imagine the object is under the page, rolling it to the right, displays the right side.

now if you think about 3rd angle from a 1st angle persons perspective, you can see where it gets its name from, as from a 1st angle persons way of working, you'd have to rotate the part 3 times to get an adjacent view.

If you look back to the cups, it should make sense now, page under...... page over etc. =) - the iso view is for folk who can't read 1st & 3rd angle and don't know the difference between a hidden line and a normal line as 1st or 3rd angle - doesnt matter, same information, different arrangement on the page!

Sry I'm editing like a bugger ignore what I just said, imagine a drawing of a dice with a printed symbol on each face. Lines and fetures wont position each face so unless you knew if you where look at a 1st or 3rd angle, you couldn't possibly arrange the symbols correctly as the draughtsman intended (maybe its loaded..... or why would it matter lol, loose example)

Also, yes 3rd angle is also acceptable in the UK, but as my boss and mentor would say if I turned out a 3rd angle drawing, "we don't work in imperial any more, its EN, not BS from here on"

Edited By Russ B on 06/03/2014 00:35:07

Edited By Russ B on 06/03/2014 00:43:36

Thread: First simple project
05/03/2014 23:30:15

Hi,

I've got a fair amount of kit but I've never used it for model engineering or small scale building, I'm looking to effectively recruit a mate at work who I think after seeing the BollAero plans could very well become a partner in crime to begin this endless journey of scale fascination!

I'm attracted to these plans because of the simplicity of the build and low component count, I'm hoping to get him involved in something quick and easy so wondered if anyone knows of anything simpler/more impressive that might do the job? He's already familiar enough with lathe work

I'm hoping to get a Sieg C0 delivered to work to "show him" and I think I can afford to loan it out for a bit - how convenient ....

I want to make one for myself and run the engine briefly just to prove it and then take a vertical 120deg slice out on the mill and hook up a thumb paddle to spin it up just as a display piece showing the contra piston etc, hopefully I can add to this with more complex pieces over time!

Thanks in advance

Thread: Asking for assistance from a nearby ME, question....
05/03/2014 21:36:49

No trouble Ian and thank you, always free help at my end in the rare cases I can help out!

Thread: Quote
05/03/2014 10:25:10

truly stunning, imagine where the next 100 years will take us, and to add that, without communication we're nothing, 100 years without communication would potentially render us savage animals again - back to square one - sticks and stones?!

That said, could the world wide web, which is unquestionably the largest source of information (and tripe,,,) be the greatest tool of the century?

Thread: Asking for assistance from a nearby ME, question....
04/03/2014 23:03:29

I'm just a 2 minute drive east of Sheffield if your passing and have a 3 axis CNC mill, happy to help, check your PM!

yes

Thread: Bridgeport Series 1 mill, ram elevating worm removal
02/03/2014 13:29:51
Posted by SteveI on 02/03/2014 13:01:55:

I am amazed that after a full head rebuild you are considering to sell for £500. What condition is the rest in? I saw a "braithwaite" rebuilt example used by a model engineer for 10 or so years with chrome ways, along power feed only and set up for single phase electrics go for over £10,000 on ebay last summer. Surely there are persons out there that would appreciate the value of such a mill?

Steve,

The machine doesn't owe me much more than that and as I'm moving house and won't have the luxuary of space 2 of my 3 mills has to go, starting with the biggest! Most functioning Bridgeports go for £700-£1000 on ebay and since this one's table isn't to clever (its flat and true but someone's drilled and slotted it several times - war wounds for sure), and the powerfeed needs attention (plus someone's painted it with non oil proof paint) I think £500's fair, I'm not in this for profit and this will be a nice little project, and easily a money maker for someone who has the time for it.

It's running on 3 phase, 220v or 415v I do have an inverter but it's going on my 2hp RF-25 as its compatible with my CNC controller and that is the RF's destiny!

01/03/2014 14:05:01

Steve I used a slide hammer to pull that roll pin out, although a wood screw and some pliers might do (something that will grip without tightening the rollpin?

I'm just reassembling the head, good as new, and as you said, knowing how it all works together is invaluable, mine had a damaged quill spring, feed clutch arm, and gear selector rod, it's been great to work out how that all works. I haven't got time to do the base machine, I'll be flogging it off cheap (circa £500 I think should do the trick) as I'm moving house and it's got to go, I've probably spent that just on the refurb so far! Fortunately the one shots all working, but the powerfeed needs cleaning out (40+ years of congieled grease is almost jamming it, it's the old mechanical type)

I'd say 100% do the head yourself, just get about 5-6 jars/trays for each area and label them well.

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