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Michael-w16/07/2017 13:00:49
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Theres also far fewer people in sweden than america i dont think its a good comparison. The idea that if you remove the penalties from crime that it would just disappear is nonsensical

Edited By Michael-w on 16/07/2017 13:02:59

Hopper16/07/2017 13:11:16
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1773 forum posts
Posted by Michael-w on 16/07/2017 13:00:49:
Theres also far fewer people in sweden than america i dont think its a good comparison. The idea that if you remove the penalties from crime that it would just disappear is nonsensical

Edited By Michael-w on 16/07/2017 13:02:59

I was talking about the crime RATE, not the raw numbers of crimes. Apples and apples.

Nobody is suggesting that penalties be removed, just that beyond a certain point, harsher penalties are not a proven deterrent. They cut theives' hands off in Middle-eastern countries. But there are still thieves.

Hopper16/07/2017 13:13:16
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1773 forum posts
Posted by Michael-w on 16/07/2017 07:37:25:
Posted by Hopper on 16/07/2017 07:17:10:

More people are killed by water than acid. Will they ban water too?

It's a lot harder to wield as a weapon though. cheeky

Michael W

It only takes a teaspoon of water to drown someone. (Don't tell them that though. They'll be after banning teaspoons next. surprise )

Hopper16/07/2017 13:23:39
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1773 forum posts

Wow, just read online that there were 450 acid attacks in the past year in London alone. Hadn't realized it was a much bigger issue over there than the latest attack in the news. Kids in schoolyards getting into it and all. With that sort of a widespread problem no doubt there will be some kind of crackdown on it. Then the miscreants will move on to the next thing, whatever that might be. I believe you can distill enough nicotine out of a carton of cigarettes to kill someone in concentrated form. Eventually when everything else is banned they will still be stabbing each other with sharpened sticks, or suffocating each other with cotton wool.

SillyOldDuffer16/07/2017 14:09:45
1599 forum posts
354 photos
Posted by Circlip on 16/07/2017 12:30:33:

"Actually the biggest deterrent by far is the certainty of getting caught."

What a load of bovine excreta they have NO FEAR of being caught.

...

Regards Ian.

Hi Ian,

You've misunderstood my point. I'm saying your car is unlikely to be vandalised whilst a policeman is guarding it because the vandal sees he's probably going to get caught.

Thinking criminals manage the risk of getting caught. They seek easy targets and try to avoid detection, for example by not leaving fingerprints or their names and addresses at the crime scene. In a city, a moped reduces the 'certainty of getting caught' because they're anonymous, can escape through gaps, with the riders disguised in full-face helmets.

Of course anything can happen when mental illness, drugs, anger, stupidty, or politics override common sense. Apart from that very few have NO FEAR of being caught.

Dave

duncan webster16/07/2017 14:34:23
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990 forum posts
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Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 16/07/2017 14:09:45:
Posted by Circlip on 16/07/2017 12:30:33:

"Actually the biggest deterrent by far is the certainty of getting caught."

What a load of bovine excreta they have NO FEAR of being caught.

...

Regards Ian.

Hi Ian,

You've misunderstood my point. I'm saying your car is unlikely to be vandalised whilst a policeman is guarding it because the vandal sees he's probably going to get caught.

Thinking criminals manage the risk of getting caught. They seek easy targets and try to avoid detection, for example by not leaving fingerprints or their names and addresses at the crime scene. In a city, a moped reduces the 'certainty of getting caught' because they're anonymous, can escape through gaps, with the riders disguised in full-face helmets.

Of course anything can happen when mental illness, drugs, anger, stupidty, or politics override common sense. Apart from that very few have NO FEAR of being caught.

Dave

The latest trick is to ride your moped with a balaclava but no helmet. Then it is deemed too dangerous for the miscreant for the police to give chase. However, I do agree with SoD, you used tyo get hung for stealing a loaf of bread, it didn't stop people stealing.

Phil Whitley16/07/2017 18:50:31
518 forum posts
51 photos

In this particular case, the squirter and assistant were using the substance as an aid to mugging and theft, and were caught within a few hours, I think they will be in for long sentences, as there is already talk about a large sentence increase for anyone who uses a corrosive substance to aid the commision of a crime. We are not talking high flying substances here, just bleach and brick acid. They should be given some time to think about what they have done.......................................ten years seems about right.

Michael-w16/07/2017 19:52:48
1661 forum posts
48 photos
Posted by duncan webster on 16/07/2017 14:34:23:
 
However, I do agree with SoD, you used tyo get hung for stealing a loaf of bread, it didn't stop people stealing.

Indeed, but the reoffending rate of the day was 0% cheeky

extremely cruel, but then how often these arcane laws were actually applied probably isn't as often as the myth portrayed, it was of course much harder to catch people then as well, law was very localized for that matter too. In short, it was just a different world. 

I actually went to an old courthouse in Walsingham, Norfolk. They had a list of penalties, you could get hard labour for stealing a rat trap! why? 

Edited By Michael-w on 16/07/2017 20:03:35

Ian Hewson16/07/2017 20:17:17
113 forum posts
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One youth critical and two others injured running in to the rear of a police car today, knives found at scene, suspected robbery. Suspect they will try to blame police for injuring them.

Mike16/07/2017 21:04:29
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480 forum posts
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And don't forget their "human rights". As far as I am concerned, anyone who is guilty of a crime has given up these rights - and remember that prison is meant to be a very unpleasant experience, not a holiday camp!

Hopper17/07/2017 03:18:33
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1773 forum posts
Posted by Mike on 16/07/2017 21:04:29:

- and remember that prison is meant to be a very unpleasant experience, not a holiday camp!

I thought it was supposed to rehabilitate people and make them fit for the time when they return to society so they were no longer a threat to it?

mick H17/07/2017 06:28:03
560 forum posts
12 photos
Posted by Hopper on 17/07/2017 03:18:33:
Posted by Mike on 16/07/2017 21:04:29:

- and remember that prison is meant to be a very unpleasant experience, not a holiday camp!

I thought it was supposed to rehabilitate people and make them fit for the time when they return to society so they were no longer a threat to it?

The concept of rehabilitation is constantly trotted out by well meaning people but as far as I know, no penal authority in the world has ever achieved rehabilitation on any signiificant scale. There have been cases of individuals who have seen the light and not reoffended but this appears to be an individual choice.

Mick

Nigel McBurney 117/07/2017 09:25:39
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497 forum posts
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The government should outsource the prison service and give Russia,China and North Korea the opportunity to quote,and offer a bonus for any that did not come back,that might make the criminal element think

Circlip17/07/2017 09:43:11
809 forum posts

"The government should"

Hmm, Brexit?

Elected representatives of the "People"? So many who translate our thoughts into what they are prepared to action.

Regards Ian

Mike17/07/2017 10:30:49
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480 forum posts
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I know I am one of those who has contributed what some consider to be non-politically-correct views to this thread, but may I suggest our moderator calls a halt at this point? We have all had our say, and we have wandered well off the subject. The great thing about our hobby is that it forms a common bond between people of all political views and of all nationalities - and long may that continue.

SillyOldDuffer17/07/2017 10:53:49
1599 forum posts
354 photos
Posted by mick H on 17/07/2017 06:28:03:
Posted by Hopper on 17/07/2017 03:18:33:
Posted by Mike on 16/07/2017 21:04:29:

- and remember that prison is meant to be a very unpleasant experience, not a holiday camp!

I thought it was supposed to rehabilitate people and make them fit for the time when they return to society so they were no longer a threat to it?

The concept of rehabilitation is constantly trotted out by well meaning people but as far as I know, no penal authority in the world has ever achieved rehabilitation on any signiificant scale. There have been cases of individuals who have seen the light and not reoffended but this appears to be an individual choice.

Mick

Depends on what's meant by 'significant scale'. In the UK (2015) the overall re-offending rate was 25%. Females are least likely to re-offend, Juveniles males are a problem at 38.1%, but the worst rate (41.1%) is in adults released from a custodial sentence. That suggests that custodial sentences create hardened criminals, with the prison serving as a kind of University of Crime where bad boys meet professional criminals, learn new tricks, and are taught to disrespect victims and the law. The worst re-offending rates are associated with our worst prisons (up to 70%).

You are far more likely to go to jail in the US than in the UK. Not only are US prisons tougher than ours, they are overloaded as well. As a result they are dysfunctional by European standards, rough on inmates and staff. Staying in one is thoroughly unpleasant and the deterrent effect should be high.

Do US prisons deter? No. The US re-offending rate is between 65% and 77%, that's more than 30% higher than the UK. The evidence suggests that horrible prison experiences reinforce criminality and they tend to submerge individual choice.

When you look at the detail, it turns out that dealing with anti-social behaviour is complicated. There must be punishment, you have to protect the public, but you also need to break the cycle of bad behaviour. A prison system that fails to reduce repeat offending is a failure.

Not all is well with the UK Prison System. Looking at what is expected of a Prison Officer, Parliament reported (not for the first time) that the Ministry of Justice is unclear about the purpose of prison.

'There is an urgent need for clarity of purpose for the criminal justice system as a whole in order for there to be clarity of purpose for different institutions within it and clarity about how they should relate to each other. Nowhere is this more urgent than in relation to the role of prison.'

It's a complicated problem and by now you may be bored. In which case, the easy answer to crime is Basil Fawlty when his car breaks down.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 17/07/2017 10:55:00

Roderick Jenkins17/07/2017 11:05:09
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1347 forum posts
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Nicely argued Dave. I don't suppose a few facts will dissuade the floggers though wink

Cheers,

Rod

KWIL17/07/2017 12:01:24
2703 forum posts
50 photos

Transporting a whole bunch of offenders to Australia obviously worked, many stayed and created the Nation we know today. Would they like some more?

Jon Gibbs17/07/2017 13:14:46
553 forum posts

+1 Dave

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 17/07/2017 10:53:49:

When you look at the detail, it turns out that dealing with anti-social behaviour is complicated. There must be punishment, you have to protect the public, but you also need to break the cycle of bad behaviour. A prison system that fails to reduce repeat offending is a failure.

...but like democracy, to misquote Churchill... Prison is the worst form of punishment, except for all the others.

Jon

John Stevenson17/07/2017 13:31:06
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Hardly a post suitable for a ME forum

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